Achieving Financial and Time Freedom - The Wealth Building Mindset with Avery Heilbron

Avery Heilbron: 0:00

Two things probably helped mold my views.And then just future looking goals as well kept me going. So the first two things I grew up in a family where, you know, I don't know if cheap is the correct word, my dad might joke that he's really cheap. But we were quite frugal, never really lavishly spending. So I got that idea of, you know, not overspending and trying to keep and save my money, but I was never really sure what I wanted to do with it. The other thing,I never really enjoyed school.And I remember right when I got to work, the first week was just so incredibly boring. I just knew I needed to do something outside of work, and there was something else. And luckily, I started reading some books about real estate. And I kind of realized, you know, this, this is something that could help change my life had a different trajectory and not just work a nine to five forever. And then really, my driving factor is why I still want to keep doing everything. You know, right now still fairly young, don't have a family. But my real goal is to just be a stay at home dad, but have no one really worry about finances, as well as hanging out with my parents before they're too old and take some fun trips,so.

Announcer: 1:10

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Jason Muth: 1:33

All right, we got another The Real Estate Law Podcast right here Jason Muth with Rory Gill. Rory, we have an old friend of ours who's on the podcast that I haven't spoken with in quite some time. But I've been following him for many, many years online. He's been on Bigger Pockets, the Bigger Pockets Money podcast, I think is what I was just told.But I remember listening to that podcast just at the house next door. We're in one of our short term rentals right now. And our original short term rental during the pandemic became our home. And I remember listening to a lot of content and suddenly Avery Heilbron was on the podcast and I was like Avery? I know Avery, we've been to his meetups in Everett. We brought Cecily to one of our his meetups like Rory, do you remember that like back when we had a baby,and we tried to figure out how we can still participate in the real estate community having a baby?

Rory Gill: 2:17

But it does feel like a lifetime ago that that was the primary concern. But now I'm very excited for today's conversation because Avery has a real story in a trajectory here that kind of cuts across the different angles in the real estate world and the fire world.So I'm really excited for today's conversation.

Jason Muth: 2:34

Yeah, Avery has moved beyond just being a real estate investor, he's you know,has invested in a number of asset classes himself. And he is a real estate and financial coach. So he has a number of students who he works with. He produces a lot of great content online. As a listener to this podcast, you actually might be very familiar with Avery but without further ado, we should introduce Avery Heilbron to all of you. So welcome, Avery.

Avery Heilbron: 2:59

Yeah, thanks for the introduction. Really happy to be here. Hopefully we have a fun conversation and somebody could learn a thing or two.

Jason Muth: 3:05

Yeah know, I said your name like two or three times right there. And I knew I pronounced it correctly offline.But did I screw it up during my intro?

Avery Heilbron: 3:12

No, that was really good. Most people screwed up pretty bad. So I'm impressed.Yeah,

Jason Muth: 3:16

Nobody can say Muth.I mean, my last name is just not a fun, pleasing want to see or say but I get it how difficult it is. So Avery, we met Avery back in late 2018 or 2019. In the Boston area, Avery was putting on a number of real estate meetups that were fantastic. There was his brewery there still as a brewery in Everett called Night Shift. And I think Avery do have properties in Everett, is that what you did there?

Avery Heilbron: 3:42

Yeah, I live about a five minute walk from that Night Shift brewery when I was starting it and that's where I bought my first duplex. And then the second property I purchased three families also in Everett.

Jason Muth: 3:54

Yeah, Everett has really taken off even since you first invested there. If you if you're listening to this and unfamiliar with the Boston area,there is a casino there, the Encore Casino. And they're expanding their footprint there.They're the latest city that has the rumors of the New England Revolution, the soccer team going into there. But every city I think in eastern Massachusetts has had that rumor so we'll see where they actually end up. But that certainly wouldn't hurt your property values, Avery would it?

Avery Heilbron: 4:22

No, that would be really awesome. Might be a good reason to move back there.

Jason Muth: 4:26

Yeah, and Avery is a good he's a big soccer guy too.Like were you recruited? Are you played semi pro?

Avery Heilbron: 4:33

Semi pro might be generous. I played in college, whatever you want to call that.

Jason Muth: 4:38

Okay, well, it's all about perspectives versus Rory our soccer skills. I think that Avery was definitely professional. So we'll just cut we'll just say that you are a pro in a different world. So all right, where are you living right now?

Avery Heilbron: 4:51

Right now I live in Durham, North Carolina.

Jason Muth: 4:54

Okay, yes. What a great city. I've been there.Very smart people are in Durham,North Carolina. Do you have a connection to Duke or any of the schools down there?

Avery Heilbron: 5:06

Yeah, so that was the real reason I moved down here back in 2021. My girlfriend is doing her PhD in genetics and genomics. And don't ask me what that means. But that's, that's why we moved here.

Jason Muth: 5:17

Yeah. I will claim that I was a biology major,many, many years ago. And I actually got an A in genetics back when I took that class. And I did not get too many A's in my major. So I was super proud of that. So maybe she and I can have a conversation someday. And I could just kind of nod along as if I know what she's talking about. What's the world of real estate like in North Carolina versus here in the Northeast that we know sort and are so familiar?

Avery Heilbron: 5:40

Yeah. So in the northeast, a big way a lot of people start is through house hacking, similar to what I did with the small multi live in one unit rent out the other one. I think that's a really awesome strategy to get in. In the southeast and south, a little bit less of those small multifamily is that you see scattered all throughout the East Coast and northeast, so just a little bit less of that going on. And then the population growth, especially here in a lot of these cities is super high. So appreciation has been pretty crazy. And just general market of homebuyers people have more money and see the home prices here is less than in, say, Boston. So you're competing against folks like that, since there is a little bit less small multi stock, and more just single family housing that people are looking to buy.So there's there's a little bit more competition. And then also people from far away, who are maybe Boston based investors who want to buy in some of these markets, too. So just all of that there's a little bit more competition in general.

Jason Muth: 6:40

Hey Rory, Avery's and one of those markets that has a lot of out of market investing, you know, we hear it a lot. But you know, we don't see it a ton in the northeast,besides people international investing in the Boston area,right?

Rory Gill: 6:51

That seems fair to me. I mean, people who often invest in the Northeast lived here or have some connection here. And that's why they get interested in it in the first place. Because it's not the most attractive market if you're certainly after cash flow. It never really has been. There are other advantages to invest in markets like this other strategies, but this really isn't the center of the cashflow world.

Jason Muth: 7:16

Yeah. And, you know,we're, we talk a lot about short term rentals on this podcast as well, cause that's the world that we're living in now. Avery has, has moved into that space as well. So I'd love to hear more about the short term rentals that you're doing. But what I love about short term rentals is people just don't talk about the northeast unless you're here in the northeast,because it's not one of those sexy, super familiar markets that everybody is, you know,flocking to, like Joshua Tree,or, you know, the Smoky Mountains, or Austin, Texas or Florida. It's just, you know,it's slow and steady, it works out great for us for the people who want to be invested in the market and you know, kind of don't want the attention of all this competition of all the money from out of the market.How Avery you've invested in real estate since you moved to Durham, how has that changed your strategy with what you are doing now, and going forward in terms of, you know, looking for cash flowing properties, looking for appreciating properties,knowing the level of competition you're going to have when you're acquiring another property?

Avery Heilbron: 8:17

Yeah, so as I mentioned, when I was in Boston,I did the whole house hacking three and a half percent down FHA loan made a lot of sense in that area, because the downpayment was a lot less than what you'd need for conventional investment loan, I've tried to move away from that a little bit, just because I don't want to move all the time, was one of the main reasons. But at first,I knew I could have utilized the second home loan to do the whole Airbnb thing, and do the 10%down. So that was what was attractive to me. I do notice in this area, specifically, or North Carolina and some of these markets that short term rentals do seem to be quite popular and do a little bit better. Just because the cash flow on a single family house, long term rental might be pretty minimal.So I just wanted to be able to capture some of that short term rental market. And also it's pretty fun to decorate a house do some of the designs and things and my girlfriend's quite good at it. I wouldn't take any credit for that. So that's been enjoyable for us too. And then beside that I had been trying to partner with other people for some of the small multi stuff or getting into some of the smaller commercial multifamily game. So those are kind of two strategies since I've been down here.

Jason Muth: 9:27

You're pretty handy though. I saw that you built a bench or something like that,right?

Avery Heilbron: 9:32

I'm decently handy. I'm not too detail oriented. So some of the more fine things don't look that great. And I've tried to do a little bit less handiwork just because if you're a DIY weekend warrior, it does take quite a bit of time. So the first project I did when I paid contractors to do everything I quite enjoyed that.

Jason Muth: 9:53

Yeah, sit back and you know, find some professionals that could do it.Rory and I know all about DIY and being weekend warriors.That's that's been our life for,what, six years now?

Rory Gill: 10:03

Yeah, I mean, it slowly creeps up on you and you have your first place is kind of a fun, exciting project. And you do that on the weekend. And then you have two and then you have three and then devouring all of your free time out of your nine to five. And then you hit the point where you have to really actually ask yourself, is it worth my time? You know, the time value of money and and hiring out other people. But I certainly don't regret the work and the DIY work because it really informed everything else we didn't know, we know what goes into all these projects that we're hiring out.

Avery Heilbron: 10:32

Yeah, I think yeah, extremely valuable. I will say just so you can understand construction, because even when going through these projects,and fact checking almost the contractor work or make sure they're not cutting corners has been really valuable.

Jason Muth: 10:44

Yeah, you know,Avery has a great YouTube channel and a lot of amazing content on Instagram, you're on TikTok too, even though I'm not really on TikTok, so I'm just gonna say Instagram, but I imagine it's similar content.But there's a lot of DIY content, I remember from the early years of you putting things out, you could tell how much time you were putting into your properties and how you were documenting the work you're doing. And you know, to echo what Rory said, there's a lot of pride in ownership or authorship, or whatever the term would be if we're the ones physically putting the work in.And I know that you've done a lot of that work yourself. And yeah, it, it allows you to have that conversation with a contractor where you kind of either halfway know what they're talking about, or you actually know exactly what they're talking about.

Avery Heilbron: 11:28

Yeah, totally agree. Just speaking the same language is is really valuable,too.

Jason Muth: 11:32

Yeah. So alright, so you have how many? How many properties in the Boston area you have three, is that right?

Avery Heilbron: 11:38

Just the two in the Boston area. Five units in Everett,

Jason Muth: 11:42

Five years in Everett, and then you have a a short term rental, or second one in North Carolina.

Avery Heilbron: 11:47

So I have two short term rentals down here and then a four unit pretty close to me in Durham. And then I live in my single family house, which I'm not going to call a rental,I have a garage that I'm about to close on a HELOC and hopefully turn that into an apartment pretty soon, too.

Jason Muth: 12:02

Yeah, I think you know, you're in the position,you're in your 20s, right, like late 20s, mid 20s. Yeah.

Avery Heilbron: 12:08

28

Jason Muth: 12:08

Late 20s. If you were 27, I could say mid 20s.But you know, the way I define it is, it's in thirds, except when you're in the later part that's in half. So you're in the late 20s. But you've done everything right throughout your20s. And perhaps this is what you're coaching your students and the people that are coming to you for financial advice, are alerting. And, you know, I look back and see all the people in their early to mid 20s that are kind of on the same path that you're on. And you know, if they have the patience, they'll be in the position that you're in,before they know it, you know,just kind of having a trail of properties. And, you know, we did it a little bit later in life. And when I was in my late20s, I never quite understood how people do what you've done.Where did you get this sensibility and mindset from? Is this something that came out of your family, or were friends of yours doing this or what really sparked your interest in creating the portfolio that you have right now.

Avery Heilbron: 13:03

So two things probably helped mold my views.And then just future looking goals as well kept me going. So the first few things I grew up in a family where, you know, I don't know if cheap is the correct word, my dad might joke that he's really cheap. But we were quite frugal, never really lavishly spending. So I got that idea of, you know, not overspending and trying to keep and save my money. But I was never really sure what I wanted to do with it. The other thing,I never really enjoyed school and I remember right when I got to work, the first week was just so incredibly boring. I just knew I needed to do something outside of work. And there was something else. And luckily, I started reading some books about real estate. And I kind of realized, you know, this, this is something that could help change my life have a different trajectory and not just working nine to five forever. And then really my driving factors why I still want to keep doing everything, you know, right now still fairly young, don't have a family. But my real goal is to just be a stay at home dad, but have no one really worry about finances, as well as hanging out with my parents before they're too old. And and take some fun trips, so.

Jason Muth: 14:14

Yeah, it's good to kind of assess those big components of our lives and realize that, you know, time is not limitless. And our parents are older. And if we have young children, you know, you don't want to miss those years as well and being able to set yourself up so you're able to spend more time with those folks is something that we all kind of strive to do. So did you move to Boston or the Boston area right after college?

Avery Heilbron: 14:38

Yeah. So I was it school in the Maine area, and most people who got a job, it was in Boston, so that was my first job out of school.Insurance company, right outside the city.

Jason Muth: 14:49

Yeah . So then around that time is when you probably started to do the investigation of financial freedom and real estate investing and you know, did you start attending real estate meetups back around that time.

Avery Heilbron: 15:01

Yeah, I, I read that first book. And then it led me on to Bigger Pockets and the podcasts and all that and you kind of go down the rabbit hole.And one of the big things that everyone always spoke about was networking and going to meetups.So I just tried to go through as many as possible and met a lot of great people. And it helped a lot. And it's still is something that I try to do a lot today because as cheesy as it was, and I think you guys need to be still have the meet up not sure named a meet up Network to Grow Your Net Worth. And I think it's still extremely true. There's always people who can help you or you can help and people that you can get together with to do great things.

Jason Muth: 15:35

Yeah, I mean that that does hold true. We did grab that Meetup group when you left it, and we still have it. And we're not sure what to do with it right now. Because we moved ourselves as well. We did a couple of meetups and then the pandemic kind of reared its ugly head again. So we just you know,said let's just put this on the back burner for now. But I totally agree. I mean, you meet amazing people at meetups, you do deals with people, you meet everyone in every category,whether it's a mortgage broker,another real estate agent,someone that's a developer or someone you can learn from, you know, Rory, you've been to a lot of these as well, you found agents at these right?

Rory Gill: 16:08

Absolutely and the range of people there too. And then the newbies is not just about for the newbies, they actually offer kind of a new energy and kind of inspiration when they go to these meetups,because they're the ones that are most willing to ask the questions that other people might be afraid to ask, or you know, just want to put themselves out there. So these events are great. And within the real estate community, just how open people are and how helpful people are to each other. It's just such such an inspiration.And coming from the legal world where it's a little bit different. It was very refreshing when I started attending a lot of these meetups in the you know, in the Boston area.

Jason Muth: 16:45

You know, I also thought people because when you were doing this Avery you were in your early to mid 20s. And you know, a lot of people are looking for that community after college of like minded folks or people that they can socialize with, you know, like coming out of college and then working it's like as it's a shock to your system. You know, suddenly all your friends aren't right around you. And you have to find kind of new cohorts. I found some real estate, people interested in real estate on the younger side actually use it as a social network. And then it kind of springboards into, you know, a great financial plan.

Avery Heilbron: 17:16

I 100% agree with social network. I'm not the best, you know, interacter with people any type of means. And when there's the common ground of real estate to talk about?Super easy. So makes it a lot better to meet new people that way.

Jason Muth: 17:32

So it's super ironic that you said that because you are a content creator. And you've created years worth of content on all those platforms.What made you want to get into that space?

Avery Heilbron: 17:44

So it really was pretty simple, nothing crazy. At first, I did make a few of those DIY videos like you mentioned,but I got so frustrated with it because it was already quite difficult to do the whole DIY filming it made everything take two to three times as long. So I just didn't have the patience for it. But I had done a couple of podcasts like these. And I found that there was always more I wanted to say or more I wanted to add on but you know, you only have the time that you have. So I figured Hey, YouTube, would be a really good place to do it.And then about a year into the YouTube journey. I just noticed one of my friends started taking off quite a bit on the short form content on TikTok, he's still really successful today.And I just figured I'd give it a try to to help drive audience and, and get more followers and you know, social media also can create some income.

Jason Muth: 18:31

What kind of feedback did you get early on when you started making these videos? Like from your friends and family?

Avery Heilbron: 18:36

I don't think friends and family ever watched it. My I mean, Mia watches all of them comments and all of them. So she's super supportive.But I don't think to this day,either of my parents have watched a single video, so.

Jason Muth: 18:48

Really?

Avery Heilbron: 18:48

Yeah, I told them about it. They know. But I think they don't really know.Sometimes I mentioned okay, hey,I have this many followers that are like, Oh, okay, cool.That's, that's interesting.

Jason Muth: 19:01

You have to have a lot of courage to put yourself out there like that, too. Right?Yeah, talk about the kind of feedback that you get. I mean,you obviously have people that you coach now. So some people have really not just legitly subscribed but actually subscribed to what you're saying. How do you block out all of the distractors out there?

Avery Heilbron: 19:21

Yeah, I think it's just talking about what you believe in is very important. I still sit down when I put my camera on or have to hype myself up to get comfortable. I don't think it's something anyone or at least myself will ever be comfortable with. But I find the hate comments extremely funny.It's cool to know that someone took time out of their day to say something hateful about me.Like that's, that's interesting to me. You know, on the flip side, if someone sends me an Instagram message or DMS in your comments, saying, Hey, I absolutely love your content.It's made me want to do X or it's changed my life in this way, it's obviously quite powerful and worth a lot too.

Jason Muth: 20:26

Yeah, I'd have a hard tuning it out I think you know, but and I just posted a couple videos next door at one of our other short term rentals,just literally walking, walking people through a property like how to use the thermostat, that kind of thing. Like I wanted to do those types of videos and like it is not easy. I mean,like the amount of takes I had to do just in for a stupid video about how to use our turntable and our, our thermostat. I can only imagine what it's like, you know, with some of the content you're putting out?

Avery Heilbron: 20:52

Yeah, a lot of takes.

Jason Muth: 20:54

Yeah. Do you have a team of people who've helped with your videos? Or are you doing all that yourself?

Avery Heilbron: 21:01

Right now YouTube probably has the most team. So I do have an editor and he creates the thumbnails.Lately. I started using him earlier this year, he does fantastic on the edits, timing,and his time management not as fantastic. But I'm not too upset about it, because the videos look so good, but for the short form stuff since it's pretty easy to just edit on your phone.And I don't do anything too spectacular from an edit perspective. That's pretty easy,especially early on, though, you had to add your own captions that looked nicer. Now TikTok's caption generator just does that all for you. So I did kind of,you know, all the texting on my hand did hurt my wrist for the first six months, because I was making three, four videos a day,but not so much that anymore.

Jason Muth: 21:45

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, that's a real thing.My mother had that. She's an artist,

Rory Gill: 21:50

I just want to ask about the motivation for putting together a lot of the content.Because in real estate investing, you could do a lot of this very quietly out of sight from everybody else almost anonymously. And to kind of take the effort and the time there's another job on top of doing the real estate investing. So I just wanted to ask, you know, why are you interested in putting together the content? And why did you go down this road?

Avery Heilbron: 22:13

Yeah, so interestingly enough, I don't love making content. But I really like the coaching and real estate coaching side of things. And I just saw it as a really easy way to market yourself. Because for the most part, it's pretty free.Obviously, you need a WiFi connection and the device to make the content. But it's just a really easy way to reach a mass audience. And so that was what I thought would be the best way, I find it really rewarding,probably even more than when I buy a property when someone I helped bought a property and you can see their life on a better trajectory. So that's been the biggest driver for sure.

Jason Muth: 22:49

Let's talk about your students. Did they all find you online?

Avery Heilbron: 22:53

Yeah, everyone's been through Instagram. You know, I have a setup so that you can watch a video that I think a lot of people have a similar thing. You could watch a video book a call, and then I just talk to you for half hour. Some people get starstruck, which I find hilarious still. Like, oh,I didn't expect you to be the one on the phone. I thought you'd have some type of closer or something. So that's been fun too.

Jason Muth: 23:16

Starstruck, yeah, I guess you never know, when you're talking to someone online? Like, are they real? Or are they not? Anyway, one thing I've appreciated about following your videos online, and I see a bunch of them, they just keep coming out. Maybe I'm interacting with them or something. But they like, you know, I know that you're real.And I know that you're investing is real. And you know, if I'm gonna start following other people online, I don't know what their background is. And that's the tricky part. Like you don't know if they're full of it, or if they are literally just copying somebody else. Or they actually do exactly what they say they are like, I'm a little lucky, I joined a short term rental mastermind last year. And it wasn't lucky because I met some of the coaches before I joined but like everyone is who they say they are like, you know, and I wasn't sure of this.Because there are a lot of coaches online. And there's a lot of people who want to take your money. And some of them will give you good value, some of them will give you great value. And I'm guessing there's some of them that are just going to take your money. I haven't found that yet, thankfully,maybe you have some insight into some of the bad seeds out there.But you know if people are starstruck when they see you,and then they start hearing your story, and it's actually legitimate, what do your students feel about learning from someone like yourself, you know, a young guy that actually has a track record of many years of doing this?

Avery Heilbron: 24:35

Yeah, I think I think the biggest thing like most people want when they're getting into real estate is just having someone to lean on when you're feeling that uncertainty,because I think with every property or any transaction I've done yeah, there's always some sense of a little bit uneasiness, especially with the first one. So I think they just see what I've done because you have the track record. And then also I you know, someone sends a message I try to get back them as soon as possible. Even though I know the dollar value is probably worth more than what people are paying. I want to make sure that it's the most valuable thing they could get possible. So just try to always give as much information be there be available, give my opinion talk through stuff. So I think that's probably what's what's been most most valuable and most of the time they're already thinking. Like most people like your gut you usually knows what's going on. But just someone else who's done it before that say, okay, my gut is correct. I appreciate this, this other viewpoint.

Jason Muth: 25:34

Yeah. You know,since we are The Real Estate Law Podcast, I should ask a little bit about maybe how you're set up legally like with your entities, like, Do you have a number of companies that are your sole provider? Or, you know, how, how do you have things kind of structured? And what kind of advice do you give to people when they're starting down this road?

Avery Heilbron: 25:52

are there.That's how my first few investments were set up, just because that was the name of the loan that I could get. The latter ones where I have partners, and then some of my short the newer short term rental that I purchased with just a traditional conventional investment loan that was or LLC and separate LLCs. And, you know, separate bank accounts, so I'm not doing any of the wrong things there.

Jason Muth: 26:23

Yeah. Are you still getting loans as you know,typical DTI loans, like through banks?

Avery Heilbron: 26:30

The latest ones have been yeah. I think my lender said I could probably do one more. But I'm probably going to maybe with the home equity line of credit that I just took out, I might go over the edge there. So probably gonna have to start doing something a little bit differently. That's also why I've been looking to partner and just utilize other people's money or go in with someone help my DTI if we need that.

Jason Muth: 26:54

Yeah, you're hitting that limit that we all hit. So if I, if I was still working W-2, like I probably would have hit that limit with this, this one that we're in right now,because this was a construction loan that we did for this property. And man, those HELOCs are a great idea. Like they just are, do you have you had them before?

Avery Heilbron: 27:11

No, I wish and I don't wish I did it. Just because you know, you lose some of your debt to income ratio, or you add to the debt, even if you don't draw from it on some of my earlier properties, just because they have such good equity. And it's been a little there was one credit union in all of Massachusetts, I called like 40.That said they would do it last year, but they didn't like my debt to income, said they do it on investment property that is but on my primary home, it's much easier down here and got it from start to close closing next week took like three weeks.

Jason Muth: 27:43

Rory, we have scaled up using HELOCs, right?

Rory Gill: 27:47

I mean, yes, HELOCs are wonderful and people who had a primary residence that they bought 10 years ago, and during this run up, this was the easiest way to get catalysts,money can have no strings attached money that you can use invest. The other thing I wanted to ask, though, with your transition, moving out of state was not just the finances and the money, but actually managing the property, it must have been one thing when you, you know,lived in the building, or just down the street from the building to be able to maintain these, how is it transition into letting other people manage the underground operations.

Avery Heilbron: 28:21

So I technically still self manage the ones and in the Boston area in Everett. I would say that it's been pretty much no different than when I lived a mile or down the street from the other ones just because I tried to set it up that way,where if there was an issue, I would call the vendor. Property turnover is fairly simple in the Boston area, just because you can have a broker do it. And the market is used to paying a broker fee. So that probably would have been the only really difficult piece if people who are out there trying to rent an apartment weren't okay with paying a broker fee, obviously,the pay that broker for you would eat a lot of cash flow as the landlord, so it hasn't been too different. Just have lockboxes set up. One of my really good friends too, is my handyman. So maybe that helps a lot. But yeah, I tried to run it that way before I even moved because I anticipated that we'd be moving a decent bit away.

Rory Gill: 29:14

The most difficult things about being an investor in Massachusetts are the laws that really protect the tenants almost at all costs. So what advice do you have to other landlords and say like this,about dealing with tenants about choosing your tenants, and about hedging the legal risk with bad tenants?

Avery Heilbron: 29:32

Right? Yeah. So there's I mean, all the things you can do to help yourself legally and insurance, having liability insurance, all that good stuff. But before you even get to that point, like you just said, screening really good tenants not being quick about that process. Getting to know the people well, just having I guess, a good gut feeling.Usually your gut feeling is pretty good when with those things. And then also just from a general management perspective, I think every single one of my tenants I have one is moving, he's like, you're the best landlord ever. You have other units, I just, you know, I had a baby. So we're moving into a bigger place. So I think people just appreciate when you care and being a good landlord isn't difficult because the bar is quite low. So that helps too because I think people don't want to trash your stuff because they know that you care and are being appreciative of of all of your things. So those are probably the two things and then in Massachusetts specifically,security deposits are kind of tricky. So make sure you open that new account. It's technically supposed to be in the tenants name. And then you have to share the information too. I actually did have one tenant, I opened it in my name.And then I didn't share that information because they moved in. And two days later, they said, I actually really hate this. So I helped them, you know, find a new tenant and move out. And like 45 days had passed. So I hadn't shared them the security deposit information. And so I had to give them extra money back penalties or something. So they just kind of be quiet, which sucks. But there are people out there who know the laws pretty well.

Jason Muth: 31:04

Yeah, I've heard from Rory, who has heard from lots of people that they definitely know the laws of Massachusetts, if you get a tenant that kind of knows how to work the system, they'll know that kind of stuff. And that might have been one of your first properties where we even knew that you had to handle the security deposit that way. So sometimes you just learn along the way, right? I mean, that's what we're all doing. I want to kind of move toward our final questions in a second. But I want to talk about short term rentals. And one thing you just said, right, there is the bar for being a good landlord is low. And that's why people like working with you. Have you used that information about being a good landlord in your short term rental world? Because you know,the difference in that world is that it's a hospitality business, along with being a real estate business. So what what have you taken from the experience that you have into the short term rental space? And what are some things that you've learned along the way there?

Avery Heilbron: 32:00

if to create an experience make people feel welcome. So I just assume everyone's paying me a million dollars, even if they're not,it's kind of how you have to treat people. I also like to add really good amenities, whether they're visible in the listing,or things when people show up.So like, at my I have one on a golf course, I recently got custom made golf balls with a logo that is associated with the property that I give out to each guest, snacks and stuff like that, at the cabin that I have,I give out S'more kids, and there's a fire pit. So I have firewood for everybody, and firestarters. So you don't have to worry about getting those kinds of things. So I think just adding the little plus ones, and then good communication is really helpful just making the process smooth. One thing that I used to not do that I started doing was the day after people check in sending them a message saying hope everything's going well, which I thought at first would be kind of annoying, and over communicating. But most of the feedback that I've gotten for people is positive. And also, if there were any issues,they're more likely to speak up at that point before you get to the end of this day and in the review period.

Jason Muth: 33:57

Yeah, those plus ones are important. I know we're working really hard getting this one right now live. And I think that on my roadmap for the next few months, there I put up a level up list is what I call it,which are basically ways that I can kind of improve the experience a little bit at each of our short term rental properties, you know, like one argument, but one side of the coin, is it the refuse that we have a really, really, really good that what I'm doing is fine and that translates into a good review and a good experience.But and then the flip side is do I want to add things on that are going to be a nuisance or a pain, you know, for incremental gain in a rating or in an experience. So I'm kind of weighing those two things like a s'more, for example, is a perfect plus one that in theory I should be doing at our place that has a firepit. But in reality guests kind of leave stuff behind anyway, like the leave wrapped marshmallows and chocolate bars. And I don't know graham crackers and the next one will will find their way to those things. So and that seems to be working out fine. We have a 4.96 on that property. So but the level up list is important.It's a really good point. You call it a plus one, you know,people need to do a little bit more, especially with the amount of competition that's out there.We're short term rentals. I mean, I think that - is your cabin in a really competitive market.

Avery Heilbron: 35:15

It's actually in a very random rural location where there's not really anything around it. I find it so interesting when I look at the data, at least on Airbnb, that there's so much interest in it like views and hearts and it's super well booked more than I anticipated. I tried to create an I think they have them in New Hampshire. Getaway is the brand.So I was trying to create something similar to that where it's on five acres of land. So I bought the cabin. And the county said I'm good to add tiny homes and tree houses and stuff. So I'm hoping to do that. And then there's a winery down the street and long term goal. I'd love to buy that, put a wedding venue on it and they would kind of all be one thing there.

Jason Muth: 36:02

Wow. What would that title be the vintner when you're a winemaker, Rory, what am I?What am I trying to?

Avery Heilbron: 36:08

I have no idea.

Rory Gill: 36:09

I have no idea.That's out of my zone. But that's, I mean, look at that trajectory here where you, you started off with an FHA loan for a multi and Everett kind of an industrial community and built up from there a network of people are following people online. And now we're discussing the possibility of buying a vineyard down the line to to supplement the short term rental business in another state. So that's that's a pretty impressive trajectory in just a few years.

Avery Heilbron: 36:42

Yeah, I hope like ends up being that way.Because it'd be pretty fun. And I don't want to do the day to day operations of hosting weddings, but people seem to kind of pay whatever someone tells them when it comes to a wedding like $300 for a plate of chicken. Sure.

Jason Muth: 36:57

So I my internet connection kind of screwed up there a little bit if you're trying to talk to me, but if you weren't, I got it. Right. Look at that vintner, I was looking for the right word. I don't know the person who makes wide or sells wine. So that's what you're gonna become Avery,that's great. We could probably go on forever with your story. I love hearing this, you know, how you got to where you are now.And the future's so bright. I mean, like you still have decades worth of real estate investing ahead of you. And, you know, lots of time with your family, old and young someday,perhaps? Why don't we move to our final couple of questions to get to know you a little bit better that we asked all of our guests here on the podcast. And then you can mention how people can get a hold of you if they want to learn more from you and be starstruck, you know, by talking to you in person. So again, we ask these three questions of all of our guests on the podcast, the first of which is if you could get on stage for half an hour, and talk about any subject in the world with zero preparation, what would that be?

Avery Heilbron: 37:50

Probably how to Well, I don't know if zero preparation counts all the years that I've done it. I was gonna say juggle a soccer ball.

Jason Muth: 37:57

That counts because you're not you're not writing a speech is what I say. So just would you juggle for half an hour? Could you do that?

Avery Heilbron: 38:05

I mean, I would probably drop a few times, but teaching people how to do it would be very easy without preparation.

Jason Muth: 38:10

Okay, that'll be interesting speech. Second question we have tell us something you happen early in your life or career that impacts the way that you're working today.

Avery Heilbron: 38:18

Probably the biggest thing that impacts how I do things today was being extremely cheap at first. Like I said, I grew up frugal, cheap household, I was way too cheap,with my first property, ended up buying things twice, fixing issues a year or two later that I should have just fixed correctly right away. So now I'm much more the opposite. I wouldn't say I'm lavish or extravagant with the things that I have in my properties. But thinking of it as very much long term durable, I just want to do this once.

Jason Muth: 38:50

What's the phrase buy it nicer or buy it twice?You guys pick that up? Yeah. A follow up to that. So you know,my family is similar in that,you know, having all these properties and mortgages is kind of like eye opening to them.And, you know, they don't quite understand how it all works.Like, what are your parents like? Do they give you grief? Or are they worried at all? Or do they see what you've done? And they say, okay, he's on the right path.

Avery Heilbron: 39:12

So I think at first, I mentioned that you could buy a home with three and a half percent down. And, you know, being from Canada, my parents thought that was very cool, because loans are not as straightforward or easy and most are adjustable rate. So they thought that was cool.Definitely more leverage than they would have ever been.Because they, whether they know who Dave Ramsey is or not,that's more the mindset of finances they prescribe to. As time has gone on, they've seen that it's been going really well. And they're like, oh, you should get your brother and sister to do this. It's going well, push, push them a little harder to get it done.

Jason Muth: 39:47

All right, good. An open mind for it. Final question, tell us something that you're listening to, or watching or reading these days, anything in the world.

Avery Heilbron: 39:54

Right now I'm reading a book called deliberate calm, it's about being a leader with a bit more calmness. So for example, in the book, there's a sales leader who's just being yelled at by the CEO, and the sales leader yells at the sales office to sell more, rather than thinking about how he's going to rally the troops and, and get the team together. So a bit of a leadership book, a lot of the real estate and business books that I was reading a ton of when I started, felt like they got a little bit repetitive. So I still quite like nonfiction development books, but trying to read a little bit of a different topic.

Jason Muth: 40:32

Yeah. That's interesting that you say they get repetitive. They do. What I learned in my sales career is that you have to say something10 times for somebody to hear it. So I used to get frustrated as a sales manager when I'd roll something out, and people wouldn't do it or understand it.And then another sales manager told me he's like, you don't get it, salespeople don't hear you.They have to hear it 10 times.You know, so I don't think it's a terrible thing to kind of read the same things over and over a lot of these books, but, you know, frankly, I get exhausted from them myself and I tend to listen to music a lot, you know,so like, if I'm doing yard work,I'm listening to music. I'm not listening to like, you know, 75podcasts and audiobooks every so often I'll put one on, but then I'll just be like, I don't even know what I heard. Like it's just noise in the background,but like at least sing two songs.

Avery Heilbron: 41:13

Yeah, yeah, very true. I also did start listening to another one, Lex Fridman podcast. He just gets pretty interesting guests who are kind of polarizing sometimes from different political spectrums,or just very interesting people.So his whole mindset is just curiosity. And he comes out everyone was like, empathetic and open mind. So I just like the questions he asked. And even if he very like vehemently disagrees with someone, he still asks good questions, and they have a good conversation.

Jason Muth: 41:44

Empathy is something we need a lot more of these days. Rory, any follow up questions we have for Avery.

Rory Gill: 41:50

No, I just want to thank you for for being here.We've been kind of following your your trajectory, you know,ever since we the first couple of meetups and it's just very impressive. So I do encourage anybody who's listening or watching to this to to follow Avery and go deep into library,get some DIY tips, or you could just get some good tips on investing now. Yeah.

Jason Muth: 42:09

Speaking of which,where's the library? Avery, how can people get a hold of you if they want to learn more about you?

Avery Heilbron: 42:15

So Instagram TikTok at _ averyheilbron. And then the YouTube just my name?Avery Heilbron

Jason Muth: 42:22

Is it a bummer? You have the underscore, like to somebody else have it?

Avery Heilbron: 42:26

Yeah, someone took it on TikTok somehow, I don't know if I accidentally messed up and didn't see it, but it's not available. And then I figured you got to have the same username for both Tiktok and Instagram.

Jason Muth: 42:39

Yeah. And you know,Avery's big time, because there's all these fake accounts also that are there in your name. And every so often I'll see posts will be like, I'm never going to ask you about crypto or whatever things you ask about. I don't I don't know what those things are. But yeah,you've probably you've been victim of that, unfortunately.Right?

Avery Heilbron: 42:56

Yeah, it's a it's a huge problem on Instagram, especially with finance graders, I don't. The thing that I find the most interesting is the amount of people who send me screenshots of these conversations with the bots and they think it's real.It seems so obviously fake to me. But sometimes people fall for it a little bit.

Jason Muth: 43:16

So if you want to book a call with Avery and a bot appears on the screen afterward,I don't even know though it happened. You know, you're in the wrong spot. But if actually Avery pops on the screen, and you're talking to this guy, like you know, you're in the right spot and try not to get starstruck, he's very easy to talk to. And we appreciate your time here. So thanks so much,Avery for for being on The Real Estate Law Podcast. You know,we've we've really enjoyed having you here. I've wanted to talk to you for quite some time.

Avery Heilbron: 43:41

Yeah. Thanks for having me. And I can't wait to listen. Yeah.

Jason Muth: 43:44

And I should say thank you for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, if you watch the episode or listen to it, we'd appreciate it if you can give us a great five star review because we love five star reviews. We also answer all the questions that are said to us if you want to be on the podcast.Feel free to reach out to me Jason@nexthometitletown.com and Rory, where can people find out about you?

Rory Gill: 44:04

You can find me add my real estate brokerage NextHome Titletown that's nexthometitletown.com or my law practice. UrbanVillage Legal.That's UrbanVillagelegal.com.All right.

Jason Muth: 44:14

Well, my Apple Watch has told me it's time to stand up. So we should probably end this so I could stand up and apparently get another ring closed today. Avery, thanks again. Rory, thank you in and thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.

Announcer: 44:27

This has been The Real Estate Law Podcast. Because real estate is more than just pretty pictures. And law goes well beyond the paperwork and courtroom arguments. were powered by NextHome Titletown greater Boston's progressive real estate brokerage. More at nexthometitletown.com and UrbanVillage. Legal Massachusetts real estate counsel serving savvy property owners lenders and investors more at UrbanVillage legal.com.Today's conversation was not legal advice, but we hope you found it entertaining and informative. Discover more at the realestatelawpodcast.com Thank you for listening