Actionable Ways to Manage Your Properties with Ease with Certified Property Manager Shira Ali

Some places you do in DC. I have a DC property managers license because DC requires it Washington DC. Many states require different states have different requirements.Many states require that if you are operating a property management company, you have a broker, a broker has to be, you know, managing that business.And then as a property manager,you're supposed to do that. A lot of people don't do that. But that's what you're supposed to do.

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Welcome to another episode of The Real Estate Law Podcast. My name is Rory Gill.And today I'm joined by Shira Ali. She's a certified property manager, CPM, and a property management consultant. She's also the host of the Manage Your Property With Ease podcast. So as you would expect, today,we're taking a pretty insightful dive into property management,property management companies,and just a lot of good practices dealing with the management of your properties and with tenants, and everything goes with it. So I have a lot to ask and want to get into. But first,I want to welcome Shira to our podcast.

Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

I'm really excited to speak with you because I want to test some of my maybe misconceptions about property management, property managers,and the whole industry there.But first, I want to just to get to know you a little bit and ask how you found this space. What led you into property management, and what led you to become such the expert in it?

Okay, so like many others in the industry, I kind of fell into it. Right? I didn't start out like when I was a child saying I want to be a property manager. I went, I was actually getting my real estate license. I was in the class, to get my I'm licensed in Virginia.And one of the small sections of the class was talking about property management, because you have to you know, that's just a small section. So we had someone come in and talk about that. And I really didn't know, I really didn't know about it. My I will say my parents are landlords,but I never knew about the professional, that property management was a career. So I remember after passing my exam and receiving my license, I was working for a development firm at that time, I was working in their like front office. And I remember sharing with my coworkers, I was so excited that I got my real estate license,and I was just so super excited.And one of the ladies I worked with, she said, Oh, um, you know, and I was telling her about this property management thing. And she said, Oh, you know, what, um, you should let me connect you with my husband.You know, he may be able to, he may have something for you. I didn't know this. So she said my information. I, he gave me a call. He happened to be the president of a local property management firm, I had no idea.He, you know, recommended me to one of the managers sent my resume, I ended up I ended up getting that position. And I stayed with that company for over eight years. So that was I that was my journey into multifamily. So there I managed,you know, I started as like an assistant property manager. And then you know, my own portfolio managed 100 units, then I stepped up to 400 units, then I went up to almost 500 units, and managing a team of people. I actually became the corporate trainer for that company. So I trained other people, other managers onboarded them, and just had a whole training program to really, you know,really increase their knowledge and let them help them be successful day to day, right? So that's how I found my break into property management. And from there, I really, you know, I'm like, if I'm in this, I'm going all in this, I'm going to learn whatever I can, I'm going to take the classes that I need to take. So that's how I started getting involved with IREM. I became a chapter president, I served on national boards with IREM. I've done a lot of you know, mentorship with them to help younger people who are trying to enter the field of property management because I'm passionate about it being a it's a wonderful career field. The barrier to entry is fairly low.So you you don't know what you're going to get sometimes.But if you really take the come in with the attitude that I'm going to learn and just be a sponge in this in this space,you're really going to do well.So that's a little bit about me and how I came to sit where I'm sitting today.

I hate to ask this question because on its face, it seems really overly simplistic and kind of embarrassing, but I think it's a source of a lot of miscommunication and bad expectations. Can you tell us what is a property manager? And you just kind of start with there? What is a property manager? And what do they do?

I would start - this is how I would say, I would define a property manager, a property manager is there to add value to an asset, right? They are there. And they do that in many ways. So, it depends on the type of asset but they're doing it they're doing, they're making sure that tenants are happy. So tenant relations, they're making sure that repairs and maintenance are not just not that they're just repairing things when they're broken, but they're doing preventative work to make sure that those things are not happening. You know,they're they're staying in touch, they have their pulse on what's going on in the area around the assets that they're managing to make sure that, you know, they're just looking out for things, things that don't seem right. Right, you sometimes you have to report those things,I've managed assets where the field next door, you know, you don't, it's overgrown, there's trash, and you know, you have to take the steps to get those things remedied. So you're really adding value to that asset. And when people think of property managers, often times they think of, oh, they know that like multifamily, not multifamily, single family,right, people who are managing someone's home and, and that's a part of it. But it's so much greater. Think about, think about any place that you visit,right, any mall, the post office, the DMV, the, I mean,different government facilities,all of these places, they have property managers. Someone is managing those assets. Your favorite, my love, I live in Northern Virginia, we have like,you know, it's like one of the town center areas, someone has to manage that, right. And all of these events that they put on, people are managing those things. So it's so much greater than what people think. And we're not just fixing fixing toilets. And you know, just this lit, you know, listening to planning residents, we're really adding value with the leasing team collaborating with them,right, to make sure that we have the right tenant mix, and we're doing the right screening, it's more complex than a lot of people think that it is.

Yeah, it certainly isn't this my experience. And I think a lot of the kind of sometimes a dissatisfaction that people have as landlords who are hiring a property manager is that they don't have the same expectations, or they don't have this sort of the same communication. I know you're a library of information on how to manage the relationship with tenants. But actually I first wanted to ask you about how you manage your relationship as a property manager with the landlords, whether they are a mom and pop landlord or a larger entity? How do you manage the relationship - the relationship between the property manager and the landlord?

So that's such a good question. Because I think that is a lot of time many times.That's where the fallout is,because they don't know what the other wants. Right. So then things kind of fall through. So for what I did was, I always there was always an open line of communication. I became when we onboarded. And I was part in my former position, I was part of the process where we went through the acquiring new management. So I went to those meetings and pitch meetings and all of that, right. So really understanding what their need is, what their expectations are,what their goals are, right? So they're going to tell you a lot of what they need. So if you're a property manager out there,you want to ask those questions,you want to get to know them,you want to get to know what's important to them, you want to get to know, they're some ownership groups, that they're very sensitive to landscaping,they're very sensitive to different things, various things on the property, you want to get to know those things, right? So that you can make sure that they're up to speed. You want to find out what they're how they like to communicate, right? And then how often what's that cadence? What does that look like? So that you can bring them that information. Some they don't want to hear anything from you, unless there's a problem.Some, like a weekly update.They're just very, like more hands on. So you'll get to know that and when you're, hopefully if you're a part of those meetings, you flush all of that information out, you're getting all those questions in so that you know, and you can have a successful relationship going forward. I think the key here is just in the beginning, just over communicate. They'll tell you if it's not right or if they don't want to know that just over communicate, give them all of the information, especially because that relationship is so new. And you really just want to have, you know, make sure that they're comfortable. This is,these are huge, these are really expensive assets, right? So you want to make sure that they have that level of comfort. And as things settle, and as that you,you know, you move forward, I think you'll get that comfort level, and then you know, things will kind of settle out.

You know, I've had that experience as well working with either three family buildings, or even the commercial space where our office is located, where we have a property manager that earns the trust of everybody. It's through good communication, good proactive communication. It's not about perfection of managing the property on a day to day basis, it's just making sure that everybody, even a commercial tenant feels heard.So I do like, how you say that there. And so you anticipated where I wanted to go next. And that's kind of starting that relationship off on the right foot. When you are advising property management companies,how do you advise them on selecting their clients top,because sometimes, making sure that property managers clients'are a good fit for them too, for their success?

Okay, can I just go back and touch on one thing before I get to this question?

Absolutely.

You know, the communication piece, and I just wanted to piggyback on that.Many times, the reason for that breakdown, is sometimes there's like a fear, this, this thing went wrong. And they don't want to tell them, they're afraid to tell them. And I think if you're on this side as the the ownership group, you know, make sure that you you also lend that, that openness, and that willingness to that you just want to know, you know, you understand things happen, and just really have that. Present that so that the property manager, the property management group feels free to communicate that. I think that's one of the big breakdowns there when it comes to, you know, because things happen, like you said,you mentioned things happen. So I just wanted to add that. As far as selecting your clients, I really think the important piece there is to have a good understanding of the type of assets that you want to manage.Everything is not for everyone,every management company is not good at everything. So if you are in the you manage A class assets, that's what you're known for, you may take on some B and C, but that's not what you're known for. If you are retail,that's what your specialty is.Really understanding what your specialty and where you play best, that's going to be key in that so that and that's going to really self select, right,you're gonna say, okay, these are the clients, this is who I want to market to. And this is who I know I can serve best,because you don't want to take on clients that you know you cannot serve well, then they're not happy, right? You're miserable, because you're doing something all day that you don't really feel good about. So I think that is is most helpful.

So you work with a wide range of property management companies and property managers to get their businesses going. Relatively selfishly, because a few of my colleagues are actively putting together a property management company, but if somebody is considering entering the space,how would you what's the conversation you have with them to start if they wanted to start thinking about things the right way, and can get start their business off on the right foot?Where do they begin?

Okay, so they're just starting, I start with them about talking about what their goals are, and having that in place, right. So that's far out here. But we're building a plan that is going to get them to that goal, I have a, I have a system that I have created a property management operating system, that's exactly what it's called. And I go through all of these fundamental pillars that you need. I understand the inner workings of successful property management companies, I've done it for 20 years and now counting, right. So I know that you're going to need that, that base. I start with, you know,you need to lay the groundwork,you need to make sure that you have all of the back office systems and those are really strong, right, because you want to make sure that you can scale and you don't want you need things that are really automated, but in a way that you can still manage it, right? So you're going to make sure that your your back office risk management, I know you would appreciate that right, making sure that you're managing your risk, because there's a lot of risk involved with managing assets, and especially when you're managing for others. So you want to make sure those things are really strong. Making sure that you have you know processes in place so that each time something comes up, you you have that outlined. You're not trying to you know, spinning your wheels are trying to figure it out on the spot, because that takes a lot of time and that delays things. When things happen in property management,you need to react you need to react quickly. And then if you have a team and that's a poor portion of what I cover, that's a very, very, very small portion. But when you have a team, then I focus on the work leadership for your team, right so that they don't need you every step of the way to do every task, right? So that they know how to deliver quality work products to clients, right consistently. So that they are,they understand best practices for tenant relations. I mentioned earlier, there's a low barrier to entry, anyone can call themselves a property manager. But if they're not educated, they don't have the tools they need to be successful, they're going to struggle. You need to have the resources to dive to direct them. So I work with a host of things with helping them get started helping them to develop their job description, all of those things that you are going to need, as you you know, scale.

Almost in any business, it's easier said than done. But starting off with the right systems in place allows you to scale and grow. I think when we have one or two clients,at the very beginning, it's easy to have all your systems in a spreadsheet, or even in a notepad and have everything in maybe you'll make do with that too, when you start but you're instilling a lot of bad habits and you're preventing yourself from growing and realizing your actual business. So I mean, I've made mistakes in growing my business as well from not having a robust accounting system in the very beginning, to not making you know, to not thinking about how communication should be automated. And yes, it's easier said than done. And perfection shouldn't necessarily stop somebody from from taking the first steps into action, but you need to think a little bit bigger and think about what your business is going to look like.You touched on one thing there and said there's a low barrier to entry in the space. Do you need a license to be a property manager?

Okay, um, so some places you do. In DC, I have a DC property managers license,because DC requires it Washington DC. Many states require different states have different requirements, many states require that if you are operating a property management company, you have a broker. A broker has to be, you know,managing that, that business.And then as a property manager,you're supposed to do that a lot of people don't do that. But that's what you're supposed to do. To sign leases, some states require that you have you know,whatever, if you're your broker to sign or so different state,you have to look at your state requirements and contact your local jurisdiction to find out you know, what's appropriate for where you live. And I would like to also go back to the comment that you made on, you know, when you start out. It's okay to start out to get started. And I get that. But really, you know,they say start with the end in mind. If you know, you're you want to have a management company, just go ahead and start investing in those systems now.Many of the systems that are out there, will you pay by unit or by asset. So you're starting,you know, there, you're going to start where you are, they're going to meet you where you are.So I just want to put that out there as well. Yeah, and then you may transition, you may start with one software now,right, that's good for now. And then you'll you'll progress to something else. But I believe starting with that, and it also lends a sense of it puts you as the expert in the industry,right? People take you seriously, when you're starting out, you're you're using, you know, how do I receive my monthly report. Well, I don't like you know, you want to make sure that the client really feels that you have a good handle on the operation.

And I know, working with other property management companies, even some very small property managers that invest in these systems can create a more professional feel to their clients. In one of the key aspects there is communication,but also being able to provide some radical transparency, being able to show the finances and being able to show what's going on kind of on a real time basis.Instead of - and that can be done with a lot of these systems where people have portals,people can log in, there are automated reports that can go out to people. As opposed to you as an person being the property manager being the stumbling block and being the one person that communicates things, and you yourself become the problem instead of the solution at that point.

You're you're so correct. You want many times depends on now this depends on what type of assets you're managing and your client base,right? Because when you're starting out early stage and maybe you're you don't have you're not managing for large institutional groups, right.That's perfectly fine. They can log in and you know, you set them up with an account and they can see it. And that also lends a sense of comfort to them,right? For the assets that I have managed, we had to prepare the monthly financial report, we had to prepare forecasts. And it was more more complex. So we had to do budget variance and comments and all of those things. So that really depends on what type of asset. We did not have something where they could just log in. It depends.You can, there's so many different ways you can set this up, I can go into a whole rabbit hole with that down a rabbit hole with that. But yes, that is one of the options that you could set up to make it easy for yourself. So you're not stressing yourself, well, I have to get all of these reports out,give them the information and let them log in when they need to.

One narrow aspect of property management that I had in mind when I made that comment was managing condo associations.If that's something you want to work with, those clients are a little bit different, because they're not tenants of yours.And they feel kind of an ownership stake collectively in the system. And it only takes one or two kind of suspicious minded people to create problems for you. So if you can give as much transparency as you can,from the beginning, you're preventing a lot of those problems that can come from disgruntled property owners in the future.

Oh, my goodness condo. That just brought that brought up a whole emotion for me. I've managed a building, I managed in DC, class, a building, had an office, class A office, very prestigious law firms, and just we had an embassy in there. And then on the top, it was condos,multimillion dollar condos, we had a princess that lived there,we had like really high, you know, it was it was something.Attorneys. So everyone brought their expertise to the table for that board. So anything that you can do to yes, like you said,just be really transparent in those situations is going to be so helpful.

And, you know, the other thing you talked about,and when people putting together a property management company is building up the team correctly.When you say that, I hear a couple of things. One is that you should have a team and you really shouldn't be growing all by yourself. And that I think is not worth just skimming over unto itself. This is not a one person operation or one person doing it all by themselves sort of business. You know, if you have any comments on that, and also, you know, how do you start to put together a team that can that can make your property management company well rounded?

Okay, so I, um, I love this this term that someone used regarding a team, I went to a conference and he called it your you need bail, right? You need your banker, you need your attorney, you need your insurance person, right, and you need a lawyer, and he called it bail, I love that that term just helps you. Even if you're starting off small. Those are you need a team of people, I don't own a ton of property. But I have a team. Right? Even though they're not they're not on my payroll. But that is my team, I consider them my team,you want to have people that you can lean on to get expert advice from I you know, there are different times or different things come up, I need to call the attorney and just hey, I have a question. You know, you need to have those people to lean on, right? So I want you to look at it that way. Your external team. And then look at your internal team. The first thing one of the first things that I think you need to do is you need to look at all the responsibilities that you have day to day and start to outline a job description for those people. And who is going to be handling that those things. Even as you as the maybe you're the operator, the founder, CEO, what is your job description? What are you going to be handling?And then what do you need to pass off to others? I work with people to help them too. Because there are a lot of things when you're first starting out you bet you may not know you don't know what you don't know, right?You don't know all of the things that make him be involved day to day. So we work together to map that out so that it makes sense for your business. And as you move on this can you know this can change. But really being clear first, on what your needs are. Right? And then I will just add this in that making sure that you have the resources and that you've set up the resources for training for those individuals so that they have a clear - and it doesn't have to be anything elaborate - so that they really have a clear plan on how they should react in different situations? Right? I think those things are key. And that's going to, as we know,labor and finding good people to work has been difficult. I've seen many businesses have to close, because they didn't have the staff to work. So you really, you want to make sure that you have those things in place, because managers good property managers are going to be asking those questions.They're going to ask about training, they're going to ask about the support that is available for them to do their job well. Did I miss anything there? Is there something a

I mean, I think one of the primary things when piece that I did?property managers bill themselves is just a resource for almost all circumstances.And one of the, I've seen some property managers try to really kind of narrow their role and say, well, we're only responsible for this. And as much as that works out, in the end, your clients, regardless of what is stated in the contract are looking at the property manager is a resource for the community. So when something comes up, it's their expectation that you can connect them with the right resources, the right most, most likely than the right contractors to perform this service, they're not necessarily asking for perfection with those connections, but they are respect, they do expect that you have the right resources available to them, and that you've vetted these resources for them. And you know,regardless of what it is, if you're going to bill yourself as a resource in the community, you really need to be that resource in the community. So, you know,when you build out your team, I mean, there are people who are going to be directly part of the property management team,depending on how you structure it. But there's also the second order people, the, you know, the plumber, who may not be an in house plumber, but the people that you're recommending for all of these different occurrences,you want to make sure that you're you're vetting them. And if you don't, I don't think you've really done your job as a property manager.

That is so true. And you bring up I didn't even -vendors, they are vendors, they are like your right arm, right?You need they have the expertise, they do this every day. As a property manager and working in the real estate management space, I have done huge capital projects, right.And oversaw these projects. I am not in construction. But you what you do is you surround like you mentioned you surround yourself with people who are very knowledgeable and ask them questions. And as as the years go on, you begin to learn more than you even thought you could,you know, you can take in. But that is so that is so important.Really, like I mentioned, their team does not have to be anyone that's on your payroll necessarily, but all of those people, those are part of your team. And those what a good vendor, I'm going to tell you,those are the ones that educate you. They're the ones who show you the process. They're not the ones who just go in and just tell you, Oh, I did this.Explain this is why we had to do this, right. This is how you can prevent this from happening again, those are important things. And those are the vendors that you want to keep on your side and give them the work, right. They're not going to get every project but give them the work so that you can that they that they stay around.So those things are so important to keep in mind.

Thanks. And, you know, it's a bit of a shift in the question, but I'd be remiss if I didn't at least touch upon this, in our conversation about the relationship between property managers, and landlords and their tenants. I would direct people to your podcast Manage Your Property With Ease for a lot more conversations about how to deal with and have good relationships with tenants.But can you tell us a little about your core philosophy of dealing with tenants?

I believe in being firm, but fair, I am I don't believe that everything is black and white. I believe there is some grey. I believe that even if a lease says XYZ, there can be room for discussion. I don't believe that it needs to be,well that's it. You know, I think that there needs to be there needs to be discussion.There needs to be education.Educating your tenants is so, so important. I think I'm gonna that's one of the things that has been on my mind. So I think I need to talk about this either. I'll go on social media more and talk about this more.But it's so important. When really having an open line of communication, making sure that you have rapport with them. I've had to do some very difficult things during my career. I've had to evict people. I've had to close people lock them out of their businesses. Those are very hard things. But, what I will tell you is if, and sometimes we lock them out and they pay and they can go back in, right, I was still able to maintain a relationship with those people and work with them. Because I did it in a way where I was fair, I had to be firm, I treated them, I was respectful,and the communication was open.So they couldn't, they could not say Shira, you never told me.You know that those things I think are key. And these are things that you need to transfer to your, your, your managers,your leaders, people in your organization. We understand there are rules, there are leases, there are all of those things. But there can also be a conversation. So I definitely believe in that. And on my podcast, I talk about I talk about those type of topics. But I'm also preparing to, as we begin the new year, really talk about not only hands on, like management things, but really the people behind the business,the people that support those people in the real estate management space, right? So I just want to have those conversations so that you get a we can color the picture better,right? That is not all just property manager, fix this fix that there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that I want to expose people to,and I want to start bringing those conversations to the podcast. So yeah, I would love if you join me.

Right. And, you know,we'll remind people how to get in touch with you at the end of the podcast, and be all throughout our show notes and everything. But tell me who who should be reaching out to you who. Who's the kind of person that you'd love to be working with?

So I love working with both early stage, whether you need help setting up, you're getting started, maybe a lot of the people that come to me have they've been managing maybe for maybe a year or so and they've tried it out and they've realized that they're struggling? Those people reach out. People, you have an established management company,you've been operating things have been pretty much status quo for some time. But you're noticing things have changed.Property management has changed.And you're noticing that you're getting stuck in those areas and things may be falling through the cracks. Your team is not as motivated, or they don't have it was actually there was this was someone I'm not gonna say their name, but they they had a team,the owner was actually completing all of the budgets. I mean, for tons of properties,because the team was not trained, he did not feel that they could handle that responsibility. Those people should contact me because of that. Yes, I have. I have a training program. Outline. But I can also do tailored training for your team. If you're saying this is where I see that they're struggling. We can work on those things together as well. So yes,those people and multifamily and commercial assets as well, I have experience with both. My career was almost split in half between those two.

Okay. Good. And we'll remind everybody the end of the show, that's the teaser to on how exactly to get in touch with you and start educating themselves. But I do want to ask you, and head to the final questions that we ask all of our guests on this podcast. And the first is, you know, if you had to give a presentation of 30minutes on any topic whatsoever,but with zero preparation, what would that be?

I would say it would be about people. People. I am huge on self development and personal development, right? I think people. I would I love to talk about people that I connect well with people I and I think let me say people are the cornerstone of everything that happens. I know people, I keep saying the word people, we get caught up right on all of like,the processes, the things that all of this right, but who's at the center? The people. People are doing it, people are doing the work. So I think I would love to talk about that and just bring that more to the forefront, especially in the real estate space. Because we get so caught up on deadlines and all of these things where we forget to check in with how the people are doing and how, what support they may need and all of those things. So that's I guess,yeah, that's close to my heart.

It's and I mean, I'll point out is, you know, we're,you're talking about property management. We barely mentioned properties at all in our conversation, we talked about people and relationships. So that's kind of the core. That's the core of what you do. It's,you know, property management isn't about - it's about the building to some degree, but it's not about the building.It's about the people.

It's a relationship business. It is a relationship business. I mean, I've had So many things that have happened throughout my career that if I didn't have relationships with people and good relationships, I would have been stuck. So yes,people? Yes.

All right. All right,next question. Can you tell us something that happened early on in your life that affects the way you do business today?

Um, I would say that,I think really watching my parents. Watching my parents,they started off, you know,small landlords and doing the work that they did, that really impacted what I never knew I would fall into real estate -writing was on the wall, I guess, but I just watched them and how they how they treated people. You know, I watched how,you know, they were firm, but fair, right. I think that that really, as you just brought that up, it's just coming to me it's play. But that was I watched that I watched that growing up.And I guess that's why, you know, I am the way I am today.

I don't you've just you've taken those lessons and done it on a bigger scale. But you've taken the same lessons.

Yes, yes.

All right. And finally, what are you watching reading or listening to these days?

Okay, so are you reading The Magic of Thinking Big. Okay, acquire this, the secrets of success achieved everything you've always wanted this, I'm loving this book. And I believe it was written in the50s. I think I look back to the copyright. It's, I mean, if you haven't read that this book, I'm just, it's just really opening my mind to so many different things that you don't like, you can take little steps to improve but doesn't have to be like, oh,huge, right? It's just showing you how to take little steps that you can, you can like really implement right now to improve.

Alright, I love it. I haven't read that one yet. So I'm adding that to my list.Alright, and then so finally,now we'll get to what everybody's waiting for if people want to get in touch with you, what are some of the ways they can get in touch with you and start a relationship with you?

So you can I'm in the process of still finishing my website. I'm gonna say it's still in the works. It's still in the works. But you can visit Shira Ali and Associates. So it's Shira Ali, and it's spelled out and and Associates, you can visit me there. Or you can send me an email at shira@shiraaliandassociates.com.So you can send me an email. I have LinkedIn, you can find me there. Just spell out my name.And I would love to connect with you. If you have a question any of those things. Sometimes people have one off things that they're struggling with, I can you know, reach out and I would love to have a conversation with you.

Okay. And then if for anybody who's interested,definitely check out the Manage Your Property With Ease podcast.It so you have a great extended team coming on your show there to talk about all sorts of topics that are of great interest to landlords, property managers, and anybody else in the real estate space.

Yes, yes. I would love to have you listen. And as we grow, I'm about to hit 50episodes, which I heard is like a big accomplishment for people.So yeah, I'm about to hit 50episodes, and I love it. I love doing what I do. I love talking about it. And I love talking and speaking with other people in the space.

All right, well,thank you, that's Shira Ali property manager, management consultant and host of the Manage Your Property With Ease Podcast. I'm Rory Gill. If you do want to track me down, you can find me at my real estate brokerage NextHome Titletown nexthometitletown.com. Or my law practice UrbanVillage Legal UrbanVillage Legal. Thanks for listening or watching to our podcast. And thank you Shira,for joining us.

Thank you.

This has been The Real Estate Law Podcast. Because real estate is more than just pretty pictures. And law goes well beyond the paperwork and courtroom argument. We're powered by NextHome Titletown -Boston's progressive real estate brokerage. More at nexthometitletown.com. And UrbanVillage Legal,Massachusetts real estate Council serving savvy property owners lenders and investors.More at urbanvillagelegal.com.Today's conversation was not legal advice, but we hope you found it entertaining and informative. Discover more at the realestatelawpodcast.com Thank you for listening