The Real Estate Law Podcast

50 - Manufacturing Money and Warehousing Wealth with Industrial Real Estate Expert Chad Griffiths

May 17, 2022 Jason Muth + Rory Gill Season 1 Episode 50
The Real Estate Law Podcast
50 - Manufacturing Money and Warehousing Wealth with Industrial Real Estate Expert Chad Griffiths
Show Notes Transcript

We've hit the big 5-0.... that's Episode 50 (we haven't quite hit that milestone with our age yet!) And we have an amazing guest and discussion for our golden anniversary episode.

In this episode, we are speaking with Chad Griffiths, who specializes as an industrial real estate broker since 2005 and an investor since 2014.

Admittedly, this is our first deep-dive on the subject of industrial real estate, and Chad taught us a ton about this asset class, a mystery to most single- and multi-family investors.

Industrial real estate can be everything from a small 2,000 square foot warehouse that houses a specific type of product (seafood, for example) all the way up to 1 million+ square foot manufacturing facilities (such as Boeing's factory) or large warehouses (think every Amazon distribution center that you see off the interstate).

Chad usually breaks industrial real estate into two main sub-categories:

  1. Manufacturing properties
  2. Warehousing properties
  3. Miscellaneous properties (also known as Flex properties)

Things we discussed in this episode:
- How Chad discovered industrial real estate
- The general lack of resources for education on the space compared to residential
- What exactly is industrial real estate?
- Who should invest in the industrial real estate space (think patient and long-term)
- How labor intensive is being an industrial real estate landlord?
- The versatility of industrial real estate spaces
- How does an investor finance an industrial property?
- Vacancy risks for industrial space
- How are the returns on investment?
- What should a new investor do before buying industrial real estate?
- Why you should always look at properties as though they were vacant
- Advice for agents interested in going into the industrial space

Get in touch with Chad:
Website - https://industrialize.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chadgriffithsire/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ChadGriffithsIRE
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadgriffiths/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/ChadGriffiths
YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/ChadGriffithsCRE

Join Jason Muth and Attorney / Broker Rory Gill of NextHome Titletown and UrbanVillage Legal in Boston, Massachusetts for another episode of The Real Estate Law Podcast!

#realestatepodcast #nexthome #humansoverhouses #realestate #realestateinvesting #realestateinvestor #realestatelaw #industrialrealestate #commercialrealestate #warehouses #industrialrealestateagent #supplychain #warehousing #manufacturing #flexproperties #industrialpark
___________________

The Real Estate Law Podcast is hosted by Jason Muth and Attorney / Broker Rory Gill.

This podcast and these show notes are not legal advice, but we hope you find both entertaining and informative.

You can follow our sponsors here:

NextHome Titletown Real Estate on Instagram
NextHome Titletown Real Estate on Facebook
NextHome Titletown Real Estate on LinkedIn

Attorney Rory Gill on LinkedIn

The Real Estate Law Podcast, because real estate is more than just pretty pictures and law goes well beyond the paperwork and cour

Support the show
Chad Griffiths:

Industrial real estate does cover the full spectrum. You can have anywhere from a $400,000 condo all the way up to $100 million portfolio and everything in between. I think one thing that's really important is to actually differentiate the different types of industrial real estate because they are there is overlap between the different types of property, but it's still important to distinguish them. So I usually break it into two main subcategories.

Announcer:

You found The Real Estate Law Podcast, because real estate is more than just pretty pictures. And law goes well beyond the paperwork and courtroom argument. If you're a real estate professional, or looking to build real estate expertise, then welcome to the conversation and discover more at realestatelawpodcast.com

Jason Muth:

Welcome to another episode of The Real Estate Law Podcast. Thank you so much for listening to us again. We are here with a really cool topic we have not covered yet on this podcast. And that is about industrial real estate, and all the things that you need to know if you want to invest in this space, probably an asset category, asset class you haven't thought too much about. But we have an expert in this space here. And that's Chad Griffiths. And we'll introduce Chad in just a second. But first let's also introduce Rory Gill, our co host of The Real Estate Law Podcast attorney from NextHome I'm sorry, Attorney from UrbanVillage Legal and NextHome Titletown Real Estate in Boston. Hello, Rory.

Rory Gill:

Hey, Jason. I'm excited to learn a bunch of things today because this is a often neglected area of real estate, industrial real estate. There are a lot of us who work in the residential space and it's well explored and well known even in the office commercial space to some degree, but industrial remains a mystery because it's difficult for a couple of people to first understand and retrain themselves, especially if they're used to residential real estate. But there are a lot of things to learn that a lot of great opportunities so I'm really excited to hear what Chad has to say today.

Jason Muth:

So let's welcome Chad Griffiths. Chad is an industrial real estate broker and investor with NAI commercial real estate. And he comes to us from Canada. He is in Alberta. So welcome Chad.

Unknown:

Hey Jason and Rory, thanks so much for having me on. The one place I usually reference to show where I am is for anybody that watches Yellowstone. If you're a fan of the show, I'm kind of straight up from the Dutton family ranch.

Jason Muth:

We have watched a couple episodes of Yellowstone. We have not dug too deep because of our almost three year old at this point, because she doesn't really let us watch all that much, you know, in a setting, but I mean, it's gorgeous. It's such a well-filmed show. And it's gotten so much buzz what are they on season two or season three right now

Chad Griffiths:

Season four.

Jason Muth:

Season four? See, that's how behind we are.

Unknown:

You've got a lot of catching up to do when your daughter lets you sleep a bit more.

Jason Muth:

Rory and I have traveled extensively in Canada, but never to the central provinces. So I don't know if that's what's Alberta would be a central province, but I see it as not the western Canadian areas and not eastern Canada. It's part of their really cold, flat country that's north of the really cold places in the Midwest of the United States.

Unknown:

Yeah, that's that's a good way of describing it. Some of the famous landmarks are Banff and Jasper. If you've heard of those areas, like the Rocky Mountains, there's some really beautiful areas up there. We're in Edmonton, which is north of Calgary, in Calgary is one of the major cities in Canada and Edmonton is not far behind. And we're predominantly an oil and gas city. That's what we've been for 60-70 years now, like everybody, they want to diversify and try and get away from being dependent on on a cyclical commodity like that. But that's predominantly what's driven our economy.

Jason Muth:

I think that our geography as Americans, our knowledge on Canadian geography is based on the NHL. And we know that there are teams in both Calgary and Edmonton the Edmonton Oilers being that team so it makes sense that Edmonton is an oil town. So how did you grew up there? Chad?

Unknown:

Yeah, born and raised. I've spent my whole life here actually have. I've invested in a few other cities. So I've spent periods of time in different markets. I was in Columbus, Ohio for for about six months on and off with a project we had going there. But aside from that, yep, born and raised, spent all my time, predominantly in Edmonton.

Jason Muth:

So since the nature of the town is an oil town energy town, is that how you got interested in industrial real estate or tell us your story and how you ended up doing what you're doing now?

Unknown:

Yeah it's funny, as Rory mentioned, it's not something that people are overly familiar with. And I was no exception. I started actually, in residential real estate for I did want residential real estate for one year in 2004. And I just didn't see it being a long term career path for me. So I switched over to commercial real estate in 2005. And I've actually been at that same company for 17 years now, which is kind of crazy to think, but when I joined that company, I thought I'd be working in that glamorous section of real estate like I thought it'd be weird working in office towers or shopping centers where we're everybody's got some familiarity with it. Like everybody knows what an office space is, everyone's been in shopping centers or malls, I had very, very little understanding of what industrial real estate even was. But the company I joined had a heavy focus on industrial real estate. So I accidentally stumbled into it, because that was the focus of the office, all the older people that were going to be mentoring me and I'd be learning under focused on industrial real estate. So it was drinking from a firehose at the beginning, because I knew very little about it as well. One of my favorite anecdotes to talk about with industrial real estate is a story a guy told me the other day, he said, The only thing I know about industrial real estate is when I'm driving on the highway, and I make a wrong turn, and I get lost in an industrial park. And I'm just trying to figure out how I get back onto the highway. He's like, that's all that I know about industrial real estate is when I get lost. So it is this opaque topic where people don't have a lot of familiarity with it. And unless they happen to have a reason to like they either worked in a factory or warehouse themselves, there's no reason that they would need to know about it. There's it's not taught in school, it's not even taught in real estate courses. So it did take a while for me to get up to speed and understand what it is. But like a lot of people, I didn't grow up as a kid wanting to be working in industrial real estate. But that wasn't a goal of mine.

Rory Gill:

What are some of the resources that you found when you're getting into industrial real estate, I know a lot of agents who are in the residential space have a plethora of resources and trainings and just resources available to them. What helped you learn about industrial real estate?

Unknown:

Yeah, and that's actually one of the most disappointing things I found out about when I got into industrial real estate. The one year that I was in residential, I devoured a ton of books, there are so many great investing books and books on how to be a great residential agent. And when I got into industrial real estate, there's very, very little, I couldn't find courses, I couldn't find books, I couldn't find videos. So a lot of it was just learning through osmosis, I just had to learn from people that had done it before, combined with making some mistakes on my own, which I made several of those in the first couple of years. And it was a steep learning curve of just trying to figure things out by listening to other people talk, trying to actually do deals myself, trying to just figure out the language and the lingo and talk to as many people as I could, which is a pretty bad way of learning a business when you don't actually have any theoretical or helpful information to guide you along the way. You literally have to learn as you go. It's gotten better over the last 17 years or so there is more information out there people can find books on it now. There's there are some courses available. But back in 2005, there's very little available that you can rely on.

Rory Gill:

Before we get too far in and people turn this off just thinking, you know that industrial real estate just is about the Boeing factories and the enormous, the enormous, enormous facilities. What is industrial real estate?

Unknown:

Great question, Rory. And you're right that the Boeing factory is one that I actually reference all the time, that 4 million square foot building just outside of Seattle, that is a daunting building. And most people are going to see a building like that. And just think it's unobtainable for the average investor. But what a lot of people don't realize. And again, it just goes back to the fact that this isn't widely known is that industrial properties can go all the way down to the size of a house. first investment property I ever bought in industrial was a 2000 square foot industrial condo, which was about $400,000. And still actually own that to this day, I bought that in 2014. Still own it to this day, it's been one of the best investments I've ever had, even though it's a small property. So I like to say that industrial real estate does cover the full spectrum, you can have anywhere from a $400,000 condo all the way up to a $100 million portfolio. And everything in between. I think one thing that's really important is to actually differentiate the different types of industrial real estate because there is overlap between the different types of property, but it's still important to distinguish them. So I usually break it into two main subcategories. And then a third category as well. But the two main ones are manufacturing and warehousing properties. And warehousing is what everybody's probably more familiar with now is supply chain issues have become talk at the dinner table. Now, everybody's heard of supply chain issues and how warehouse vacancies are really low. And it's hard getting product from overseas into North America. It's hard getting product into warehouse. People are pretty familiar with the warehouse concept. But again, that can be anywhere from a really small property that's designed to hold a very specialized good at another property as an example, we had a seafood distributor in there, and that's all that they had in there was just seafood. So that's a good example of a warehouse because they just stored things in there. Then it can go all the way up to a million square foot Amazon facility which you guys are probably familiar with as well. You know, see those close to airports are off major highways. These are a lot more prominent now instead of being tucked away in an industrial park. So that's the warehouses can go the full spectrum anywhere from 2000 square feet to 2 million square feet. The other main one is manufacturing. And these are the ones that people aren't as familiar with, even though they probably have some experience with it, Rory, you said that your dad had a mechanic shop when you were growing up. So that's a perfect example of a manufacturing property where things are made or they're worked on or they're assembled, can be anything from a car manufacturer to a big machine shop that welds and manufactures and works with steel, you can imagine like one of those big old dirty factories where things are just made or produced. And again, there's the full spectrum there, you could have a 2,000 square foot condo, which probably is around the size that your father's shop was working out of all the way up to a million square foot manufacturing facility. So I think what people really need to get a grasp on first is that industrial real estate is a lot more broad than they might realize. It's not just a million square foot Amazon facilities, there's a whole side of the investment spectrum that is available for the average investor that just wants to consider industrial real estate versus some of the other asset classes. And we can talk about that as well. Because I've invested in both. I've invested in residential and industrial, and I've shifted my entire portfolio over to industrial for various reasons.

Rory Gill:

So let's start with the the perspective of that the smaller investor, I don't think I'm wrong just to assume that most people look at the residential space. And that's the default perception. But who should be considering investing in industrial real estate instead?

Unknown:

Well, the first thing that I would say is that it should be a very patient investor that has a long term horizon. And they're also willing to spend a lot of time learning the asset class, because as well as is, I believe that it's a great investment vehicle, it also does come with more risk than a traditional house, like if you buy a house, you're going to find a tenant for it eventually. Maybe you have to lower the rent a couple $100. And eventually, you're going to find a tenant with industrial, if you buy the wrong property, then you could conceivably be stuck with that for several months, if not years, until you find the right tenant. So that's a real worst case scenario, but it is a possibility. So I say the first thing that someone needs to understand is that it does take more time, you do have to learn a new asset class altogether, you have to learn what makes a good functional building, you have to learn what tenants look for when they're considering a property. And if those two don't match up, if the functionality of the building and the desirability of what tenants want don't match up, then you have an incompatible property and you could be stuck with a vacancy. I think what I'd recommend for people considering industrial is it's people that want to pursue investments that aren't as management intensive. Because for anyone that's invested in residential, you just you know, the problems that come with it. If pipe breaks in the middle of the night or some issue comes up, it's very management intensive. Versus an industrial property, the one that I mentioned the first industrial property that I bought, I had a tenant in there for five years at the beginning. And we just put a new tenant in there. And they've been in there for two years now. In that seven or eight years, I bet you I've been to that property 10 times total. Checks came to me at the beginning of the month, I never had to chase the tenant, anything that came up, the tenant would dealt with, we had that agreed to in our lease that they were responsible for any maintenance or anything that came up. So it was a lot less management intensive. So I think for people that are tired of having to deal with those issues all the time, industrial real estate does offer a break from that. And I think that as you start to scale as an investor, that's where industrial real estate probably looks even more attractive. One property that I bought three years ago now is a manufacturing facility, we've got a single tenant in there, which is a fortune 1000 tenant, it was about $3 million for the property. And it's one single tenant. And I've been to that property once. When we did our walkthrough on it, that's when I've been at that property and haven't been at it since. And you can imagine that if you were to try to do a multifamily property at the same price of $3 million, you're probably going to have 15 tenants give or take that you're going to be dealing with. You can imagine how management intensive it would be to look after 15 residential tenants versus one commercial tenant that takes care of everything themselves. There's pros and cons, I think it does come with more risk. And that's just something that people need to mitigate as much as possible. And the only way to do that is to become a student of the industry and learn everything you can about it. But if for an investor that wants to scale, I would much rather have a single tenant that is that easy to manage. That's true passive income in my mind, versus a 15 unit multifamily property of the same value where I'm actively having to manage it. So those will be a few of the key reasons on why I personally like industrial,. That's not to say multifamily or residential is a bad investment either. Everybody's just gonna have a different profile on what they're looking for.

Jason Muth:

I have a couple of questions. A lot of questions right now. Let me start with number one, which is the tenant that you have in your small space. Like what type of business was is it and what type business now is it?

Unknown:

Yeah is interesting. It was actually a company that repaired kitchen equipment for restaurants. So their main business was going around to restaurants and if a stove broke or a cooler broke, that tried to fix it on site, and if they couldn't fix it on site, and then take it back to the shop, and they just had a whole bunch of different parts and random things kicking around there. It was actually one of the messiest spaces I've ever seen, because they had kitchen equipment parts everywhere. But that was their whole business. And they came to that building had been in business for about 20 years prior. And they did a five year term, and then they retired. So they never missed a single payment, like I said, I was at that building very, very few times is really only if there is a major issue. And that was it was a very easy company to work with. When they retired, we put a machine shop in there. So it's just a company that has few lathes and CNC machines, and they are actually already in the area. This was just some overflow space where they needed a couple more machines to work on. And they've been in there for two years now. So completely different uses like going from kitchen equipment repair to a machine shop. But that also does speak to the versatility of

Jason Muth:

How do you do the transition from the first tenant industrial. to the second, like what needs to be done in between?

Unknown:

The bay itself was actually quite functional. It's there was no major impediments in there, it had high ceilings had a good size overhead door. We did upgrade the power in that one, which was we did even prior to the kitchen equipment moving in. And the kitchen equipment group didn't need it. But we're lucky that we did do it. Otherwise, we would have had to do it anyways, for this machine shop, there would have been some downtime. So those are there are a few things that you have to be cognizant of making sure that power and ceiling heights and things like that are there, for the kitchen group was very hard on the space. So it was very messy. They were hard on the front office space. So we did a full renovation on the on the front office area. But it was cosmetic, there's nothing structural that we did besides flooring, some paint, change some tiles in the ceiling up, put some new lights in there. It was purely cosmetic. I think our cost was like 15 grand or something to do a full renovation on it. And it looked

Jason Muth:

Right? I mean, it's kind of like re-carpeting and great. painting like in between a residential tenant, it's very much so. Right? Yeah. Alright, two quick more questions, then. I know, Rory, he's got some. The first one was how do you find these types of businesses to put into the industrial space?

Unknown:

Yeah, that's a great question. So one thing that I always recommend to people that are considering industrial real estate is to go and physically drive the industrial parks in your area. So most cities in North America, and I'm not aware of any that don't follow this, the municipalities will actually put industrial buildings in one specific area, they'll segregate it away from the residential or commercial areas. And there's good reason for that. There's some noise and some smells that sometimes come or just traffic truck traffic, there's good reason that they want to separate that from residential areas. And they usually do that through a zoning or regulation standpoint, where they restrict what type of uses can go in there. So I'm willing to bet that whoever's listening to this, if you look at a map of your city, you'll see that the industrial areas are segregated into two to four main nodes with all these industrial buildings that can be located. So just pick a Saturday or Sunday where these industrial parks are quite slow, and just go and physically drive it. And what I can promise that you'll discover it through this process is that there's just so many different types of businesses that you would never even think about. One that came up the other day was a company that services arcade games. So it was video games like Pac Man and stuff, I never would have thought that there was a company that had a warehouse full of these machines. But once you start thinking about it, these machines break down and somebody's got to fix it and just happen to be these ones. So too, I know that was an indirect way of answering your question, but I think it's eye opening for a lot of people to just realize that there are so many different types of tenants available. And that that's demand, that's demand for the physical real estate on how you're going to fill it. So I usually just take a an approach that if you know the market really well try to reach out to anyone that you think can be a fit, try to be cooperative with the brokerage community so that they bring any clients that they're working with, and advertise no different than you would if you had a two bedroom apartment, you've got to advertise in any different mechanism you can to distribute that information and get people attracted. But I think it starts with having understanding of how broad and wide the industrial real estate market really is. And I'm sure to see him in your market. If you were to drive there, you'd see businesses that you had no idea even existed.

Jason Muth:

Yeah, that's such a great concept and idea is driving the industrial parks to see what's there. It's one of those things that's just kind of like right there in front of us that you just never see. And I'm thinking back to like my childhood and there is an industrial park that was 10 minutes from where I grew up. And it was off the main local highway and it was tucked away and it was a bunch of buildings that all look relatively the same. And we went there for the batting cages, like there was a batting cage there, which probably makes sense to have an industrial park because you need high ceilings and a long space. I can think of other kinds of kids attractions like trampoline parks and whatnot that are probably also in industrials spaces around here. So, you know, again, right under your nose, but you just never see it. And now I'm like, wow, I gotta look for this, like, whenever I'm looking around, that's exactly the kind of business that could be in there. My other question, and I know Rory's got a question in a second. But my other question was the $3 million building that you mentioned. How does somebody finance that? You know, we're not talking about FHA loans, obviously, I don't know if we're talking about 20% down. I don't know if we're talking about commercial loans, like, you know, how it's, and you're in Canada, too. So the rules may be a little bit different from the United States. But you know, can you give us or share some insight as to how someone might go about getting financing for a building like that?

Unknown:

it as a syndicate where we sponsored if we just set up a new LLC to own that property. And then we're all individual partners of that LLC. But we basically got a on that one, we put down about 30%. So that one's 70% loan to value on that one. And we have a big bank, that's the one that actually put the debt on it. Just because we've got good credit, we have a fortune 1000 tenant in there, and we put down a good chunk of money. So that's a good distinction to bring up because there are other properties where you can finance with a lot higher loan to value, and you can get more leverage for that one. And everything that we've actually bought has been in that ballpark of the 25 to 30% down, you can get more creative with mezzanine financing and or higher risk financing, where you're paying a higher interest rate. You can be creative and push that up. But then it starts affecting your cash flow and your ability to even just a service the financing. So I'm most comfortable -and I'm a pretty conservative investor in general - I'm most comfortable if I've got enough of my own capital in there that we can cashflow that property right off the bat. So that was important to me. And if I could actually just circle back to to that point you brought up about the batting cage, because I missed mentioning that third category of industrial real estate, which is a kind of a catch all. It's all the miscellaneous properties. And we usually call it Flex Properties. So manufacturing, warehousing and Flex Properties. And that batting cage example that you brought up is a perfect example. It flexes generally all the industrial zoned properties, all the properties that are industrial, but they're not necessarily conducive for manufacturing or warehousing. So that's where you see a lot of these specialized uses - batting cages is an awesome example. You see those in industrial properties all the time, you might see art galleries, if it's a major area or a dense area. And as industrial building or galleries, you might see churches, bottle depots, showrooms, car dealerships, all these various types of businesses can theoretically go into an industrial building, if the municipality has determined that it's an allowable use in that building. But there is like industrial real estate, even straight office, actually. You could have straight office in an industrial zoned building. So it's got a wide array of different types of uses that can go in it.

Rory Gill:

So if I heard earlier, you're suggesting that, you know, this type of investment is much more passive. But when it comes to the higher vacancy risk. You know, when it comes down to it, however, the returns on investment in the industrial space,

Unknown:

Yeah, for all those reasons Rory about it having more risk, and just more barriers to entry, it typically has a higher return. So just speaking pure cap rates in my market, and I don't know how you guys wouldn't be in New Hampshire, but just in my market. For cap rates for multifamily, we're seeing anywhere in that three and a half to five cap rates. Whereas in industrial, we're seeing anywhere from six to eight cap rates. So cap rate isn't the best return metric to use over a longer holding period. But the for that going in cap rate anyways, you've got an opportunity to have 200 basis point higher spread on your cap rates for industrial versus multifamily. Over the long haul, I think if you were to do like a discounted cash flow analysis, and really compare two investments or multifamily or an industrial, I think the higher loan to value ratio on multifamily helps out your internal rate of return number over like a 10 year hold. So I like to look at a pro forma if I'm looking at an industrial property and I'm extrapolating over 10 years, I like to look to try and achieve a 15% IRR, roughly somewhere in that ballpark. And I know a lot of multifamily guys are able to achieve that over a 10 year period as well. So going in cap rate, I think you're 200 basis points higher if you're looking over a long term hold. I think the returns are actually gonna be pretty similar. But I the things that I like about industrials, it's just it's a lot easier to manage and scale. So pros and cons to the one point about the risk, though, I think that that's worth emphasizing because the last thing I want to do is paint this to be this unbelievable opportunity that everybody should be doing right now because it can come with significantly risk. And one story is an investor that I know who bought a property, I gotta make sure I line up my dates with this. So I apologize. If I've said this in another video and my dates aren't correct, I'll do my best to reconcile it. He bought a property about three years ago, in a smaller market, kind of a suburban market, 15-20 minutes outside of our major CMA. And it was a single tenant that was in there was a large construction company that was the tenant. And at the time, they had four years left on their lease, and they had been there for quite a while, a year after he bought it, the tenant said that they were vacating the building, and they still continue to pay rent, they're contractually obligated to continue paying rent, so he's still getting rent to this day, even though they've now been out for a year or so. But he's been trying to or the company has been trying to sublease it and he's been trying to sell it as this past year has been vacant, and not a single person has come forward on it. So in about a year or so this property is gonna be fully vacant, and there's gonna be no tenant paying the rent. And there's really no market either on the buyer side or on the tenant side, to come forward to take this building at this moment. So he stands the risk of having a building that he's now earning no income on, he's servicing all the operating level expenses on the property, like property taxes and insurance, keeping it heated. And that Oh, another part that's interesting is his insurance, there's a provision in his insurance that requires him to visit the building every two days to make sure that there's been no nothing that's gone wrong, no vandalism or no broken pipes. So he has to drive and I think for him, I think it's about a half hour each way, he has to drive half an hour an hour round trip every two days to this property. So in addition to making no revenue on it in a year, so be no revenue on it paying all the expenses, he has to drive out there every two days. So that should be a scary proposition for people to think about industrial real estate, because you wouldn't have that if you bought a multifamily building in a good location, you're always gonna be able to fill it if you just lower the rent enough. So I use that as a cautionary tale, that industrial real estate, well, I love it, I speak very highly of it, it does come with risk. And I think there should be an element of fear that new investors have. And I think a healthy amount of fear is good, because then it requires them to do the extra due diligence, study the market a little bit better get to really understand exactly what it is that they're buying. So they go into with their eyes wide open, they're an expert, as opposed to just trying to be someone that can go in and buy the first building that they see and expect it to be a great investment.

Rory Gill:

So when I see that, you know, how do we hedge against that kind of risk as we're looking at properties that are maybe more versatile? Or is it were mistakes made in choosing that property choosing that market? How can we can't cure it, but how can we hedge against that kind of risk?

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah, the one thing that I always recommend, and it's for how I look at properties, and it's how I recommend other people look at properties, is to always look at that property as if it were vacant. So in this case, this guy could have avoided that scenario had he looked at the property on what happens if this tenant leaves, and it just so happened to his tenant did leave, still paying rent, but they're not in there. If you go through that exercise of determining what the property is worth vacant, I think automatically, you've got some hedge for that downside risk, because you have to go through the exercise of saying if this property is vacant, what are comparable properties going for? Is there demand for this type of property in the market? Are there any limitations that this property might have compared to the rest of the buildings that you're competing with in the market. And if you go through that exercise of determining how competitive that building is compared to the rest of the market, and you're identifying it on a price per square foot, so you can compare apples and apples, I think you're automatically mitigating some of your downside risk. There's always risk with any type of real estate that the tenant doesn't pay. Even in multifamily. There's the risk that there's a an eviction moratorium or a rent freeze that happens in a once in a century type of event. There's always some risk with real estate, my big thing with being an investor and when I advise people, first thing you should always do is protect your downside risk. That to me is the number one thing that I do before I start looking at the rosy picture like that, going back to that 10 year projection. And maybe I'll scale that down a bit instead of throwing out the terminology because some people might not be familiar with that discounted cash flow analysis. But really, as an investor, what I tend to do is just make a 10 year projection, I'll figure out what my anticipated revenue will be, anticipate what the expenses will be, get a net operating income, so net of the expenses, figure out what my debt servicing is going to be, figure out what my taxes are going to be and then you get the cash flow before and after taxes. And if you break that all down to what your investment is, you can start calculating what your annual compounded return would be. That's really what an internal rate of return is just your average annual return. So most investors are going to create one of these pro formas. And you can manipulate these things very easily to essentially have it spit out whatever number you want. Like if you just say, I've got a lease coming up in five years, and I think I can increase the rent on that 10% that year, and maybe the number doesn't come up, as you want to say, no, maybe I can get 15%. And now all of a sudden, that little tweak is what's enough to give you that desired return. I think there's too much temptation that investors do at the beginning where they paint this rosy picture on how good the property could look. If everything goes according to plan. If all your assumptions come true, if there's not a major event that perhaps derails that, I think the focus should always be what happens if the if everything goes wrong. And if you can weather that worst case scenario, and if your evaluation makes sense, based on everything going wrong, if you can ride through that and say, I still will be able to service this worst case scenario. And you've convinced yourself that that downside risk won't crush you. But then I think you start having fun with those projections and say, Well, how would it look, if I got a 30% increase in your five on my rent, and then you can start having fun with it. But I'm a big believer, if you could hold real estate long enough, you can get some principal pay down, you can gradually increase your rates, you can get some appreciation in the market, you can get some cash flow along the way, real estate is a very lucrative investment vehicle. But the first thing you have to do is be able to weather any downturns

Jason Muth:

Have you considered diversifying your own real estate holdings like beyond industrial because I know that you mentioned one of your goals is to purchase a new industrial property, you know, each year like we'd certainly have a personal goal also of adding one real estate property to our portfolio each year, I've never considered industrial frankly, you know, not to say I shouldn't but because I now will. But you know, I think that we're kind of setting ourselves up to mitigate risk, because you talked about downside. You know, we're spread across a couple of different markets, and in a couple different types of asset classes ourselves. So what are your thoughts on that, like with your own personal investment? And then, you know, a follow up to that would be the people that you work with, as a broker - are they coming to you because they only invest in industrial? Or are they also looking to kind of add a different asset class to their overall portfolio?

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah, great questions. The short answer is I should be. I mean, I think any investment advisor would look at my portfolio and get heartburn. Because I'm so concentrated in industrial real estate, it's probably a scary proposition on how much I've got in one proverbial egg basket. I think right now I'm pretty comfortable with it, even though it is so high risk, just because I know it so well, I literally get up in the morning and look at industrial news. I spend my entire day working in industrial real estate, and I even look at industrial related news at night. Like I know this way better than I know any other asset class or investment vehicle. So right now, I'm way overweight, in industrial, but it's just something that I know what I'm really passionate about. I think where my next logical step would be to consider diversifying by going into other markets. Right now, every single investment that I have is within a 20 minute drive in my office. And that's not only am I heavily concentrated in one asset class, I'm heavily concentrated in one single market. So I think at some point in the future, I'd like to explore other markets. But right now, it's I'm bullish for industrial real estate, I think that there's still a very long runway ahead for industrial real estate, barring world war three, or something else break, you know, that we're not prepared for. I just think that there's a long runway in it. And I think that that's how I recommend it to other people, as well as if you are an expert in one specific area, and you're passionate about it, and you're going to be dedicated to staying on top of trends and news and things that are happening in the market, I think that that's just a great investment vehicle going forward. Versus trying to take a more passive approach or invest in an asset class you might not know as well in a different city, where one example would be Nashville. So I've got a good friend of mine that owns some property there. And I'd thought about piggybacking on some of his investments. But I just I'm not going to study Nashville nearly as much as I'm going to study my own market, it's not going to happen. So I like the idea of being hyper focused, being an expert in that market and being able to adapt and maneuver as things come up to the second part of your question about what people are looking for. I would say the bulk of my clients are existing industrial real estate owners, so they've already got a portfolio of properties and they're either looking to add or sell as they fine tune their portfolio, but they're definitely is people that come from other investment classes. The most common one without question is an investor that owns multifamily that's just tired of the management requirement and how hands on they have to be versus they talk to a friend or they talk to someone that that owns industrial and they say say that it's a lot less management intensive, that's probably the biggest one. And then other ones certainly would be other asset classes, which are just underperforming right now or have risk of underperforming in the future and office I think is a good one. I would be nervous to own an office property right now, if there was vacancy projected to come up. Like as we've gone through this last two years, a lot of office tenants have still had trailing lease obligations. So they've still continued to pay their rent. But all this work from home, I don't know what that means going forward. I still don't have a good finger on the pulse of how many people go back to the office. But it's hard for me to imagine a scenario where we're going to see much growth in the office or retail sectors. So I think that there's investors that are saying, Okay, well, it's, you know, we might not get much growth in there, there's potential for even more downside risk in these asset classes. Let's consider industrial. So it's interesting in 17 years that I've been in this business, industrial has gone from being this really boring, still safe asset class, but really boring. Not it's not a trophy asset by any means. A lot of big investors haven't considered it, it's now gone from being one of the most popular and sought after asset classes. It's crazy.

Jason Muth:

Yeah, the jobs that probably in the industrial complexes are probably not ones that can be done from home, you know, if you're talking about kitchen equipment repair, arcade game repair, you know, a batting cage can get shut down, you know, if there's another COVID surge, but, you know, it's not like they're technology jobs, or digital jobs, or accounting jobs that can be done from the confines of somebody's home office. Those are the type of things where people are storing stuff and shipping it out, fixing things, you know, making things manufacturing. So yeah, I mean, you've definitely touched upon something that was the boring asset class in the past. And then, you know, look at the world we've been through the past couple of years. And suddenly people are looking toward it. Rory, what types of legal questions do you think that Chad deals with on a regular basis with his industrial properties?

Rory Gill:

Well, I mean, you're talking about lease contracts, that pertains with residential properties as well. But the contracts are a bit more involved. So you might ask about that. But also, when you go through a transaction, you're hitting a lot of extra requirements, environmental studies, and things that are just off the radar for a residential agent or even residential attorney. So you know, can you speak to some of those challenges you've had with the contracts? And also with the process of the transaction?

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah, great question. And a lot of residential property leases are almost a template, I know it is in my market, it's one landlord will use virtually the same agreement as another landlord, it's almost in legislation that you have to use a certain type of lease agreement. And they're very, very simple. A commercial lease, or specifically an industrial lease can be 60 pages. And it's very specific to that arrangement. So I've seen two leases for two different properties that look dramatically different. So it requires a lot more attention requires a lawyer, like I recommend to everybody, the first thing that you need to have when you're starting to invest in commercial or industrial real estate is you need to have a lawyer on your side, because you're gonna get overwhelmed with the amount of information that's going to come at you, particularly if you're not used to it, or you come from being a residential standpoint, what you still need a lawyer, of course, but I just think a lawyer in commercial or industrial is required right from the beginning just to be to get ahead of those things. So maybe one thing that I can talk about there is just actually the difference between how leases typically work, and the terminology can vary across markets. And you might hear different words thrown about on how it is but the key thing is how they're structured. So most residential leases will be structured as a single gross lease. So the tenant pays $2,000 a month just using an arbitrary number, they pay $2,000 a month, maybe they pay utilities. On top of that maybe the utilities are included. But the whole idea is that $2,000 a month is gross, inclusive of property taxes, utility or insurance, any common area issues, condo fees, if there's condo fees, that $2,000 a month is a gross amount that the tenant pays. And again, they might pay utilities on top of that, but they're not paying for property taxes or anything over and above that $2,000 a month. Many commercial leases, I should say industrial to be more specific. Industrial leases often are quoted as triple net, which might be terminology that some people have heard. I've heard so many different ways of this being described following that triple net single net, double net, net net net, it's actually almost comical how many different ways this can be described. But the whole intent is that the tenant will pay a base rent or a net rent, and that's the amount that's going to be contractually agreed upon for the whole term of the lease. So if it's a 10 year lease, the tenant is going to pay a base rent which is fixed for that entire term. It might be one flat and one amount that stays consistent the whole 10 years or there could be escalations in there, but the point is that that amount is pre agreed to, then the tenant will also pay operating costs or additional rent. And again, terminology might vary, so check whatever market you're in. But the intent with the operating costs or additional rent is that the tenant is responsible for paying all the operating level expenses of the property, these are going to be a flow through expense. So the tenant is responsible for paying their proportionate share of property taxes, building insurance, common area maintenance, like landscaping, or snow removal, property management fees, they're responsible for paying these costs, not just at that time, but they're also responsible for paying any increases in those costs. So this is another reason why commercial real estate can be a much more viable investment opportunity is that you know what your net rent is going to be, you know what, that amount that that tenant is paying. And you also know that that tenant is responsible for paying any of these property level expenses. And you could appreciate if you did a five year gross lease with a residential tenant. And I know that those wouldn't be common for residential. But assuming you did, you did a five year gross rent with a tenant and your property taxes kept going up, those property taxes would erode the amount that you have coming to you, versus a commercial lease, if you had a structured such that it's a triple net lease. And again, I emphasize get a lawyer to confirm that your lease actually is structured this way. And that it's worded this way, most are every lease that I have is worded this way 99% of the leases I've dealt with are worded this way is that the tenant pays their base rent. Plus, they're responsible for paying the proportionate amount of all the operating level expenses, including any increases in those expenses. And if it's worded that way, that's a fantastic investment vehicle to maintain that cash flow going forward. And also not having to be eroded by any increases, that even as I went through that really quickly, you can appreciate how important it is to have a lawyer on your side explaining that that's how that's the intent of the lease. That's how it's intended to be, and that it's enforceable. Because if you omit something, or you make a mistake, or you don't have a lawyer that catches that, that can be detrimental as well. So I'm a big believer, good investment property involves a full team, that's a broker, a banker, a lawyer, and to your other point as well, just the the due diligence, environmental reports, appraisals, there is a lot more due diligence that goes into it and having a team around you just increases the chances of having a successful outcome.

Rory Gill:

And I have one final question, and then I'll let Jason move to the wrap up, but I have to ask them the perspective of a real estate agent. Because I've seen enough real estate agents just dabble dangerously in industrial commercial space. What advice do you have for an agent who is interested in going into the industrial space and want to make that a part of their business?

Chad Griffiths:

I think it largely depends on the size of the market. If you're in a smaller market, call it 100,000 people, there probably isn't enough of market size to actually focus exclusively on it. As you go up in market size. And you could appreciate like a city like Chicago, which has you know, with marketing one of the principles is narrowing your nearly a billion square feet worth of industrial space, the agents that are successful there become hyper focused. So not only will there be somebody focused exclusively on industrial real estate, there might be an agent that's focused exclusively on one neighborhood of industrial properties. Or there might be focused on one subcategory. So they might only focus on distribution or logistics space, I would say gauge what your competition is doing in your market. If you're in a bigger market, and I'm in a market of about a million people, we've got about 150 million square feet worth of industrial space, you have to be focused, because if you're not, if you're an agent that's trying to sell houses, sell office buildings, lease retail space, and lease industrial space, there's just no way that you can be up to speed with what's happening in the market, tenants coming in what deals just happened, trends going on, market comparables, there's just no way that you could be competing with someone that does that all the time. But if you're in a market where your competition is doing that, so they might be selling houses, they might be working, selling businesses and selling that, then I think you've got a reasonably good chance of doing it. But for me, I would recommend that for people that want to consider it's just take it as seriously as you can commit to being an expert in it. I think your chances of success in anything go up if you commit to excellence. focus, right? And then you can kind of like broaden out from there. That's exactly what you've done right here Chad. I mean, like you are quite an expert in industrial real estate space. I mean, we haven't had anybody else speak on it on this podcast. So you are our top expert. But you know, you're also probably the kind of guy that goes into like a cocktail party or hangs out with their friends, and, you know, everybody knows what you do when you walk into the room. Or if you get talking about it, my hunch is you have a lot to say about industrial real estate because you're just such a wealth of knowledge. So you know what that tells me is that specializing is super important. That's why people that seem to be super successful in their niches are the ones that go all in on a niche. It's a matter of, you know, taking the risk and say, what niche do you want to go all in on. And if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably curious about industrial real estate, or you just are a subscriber and like listening to all the podcasts that we do. And maybe you haven't considered this. So I think it's worth considering as a category as a way to diversify. Clearly, if you want to go all in on industrial, you're gonna want to call Chad, or someone like Chad, you know, you might not be licensed to buy and sell real estate in all the markets where people are listening, but you certainly can give some advice, and maybe they could Venmo you some cash or something afterwards. I love talking about industrial real estate, as you can tell. So I, I'm always happy to have a chat with someone if they just have a general question. Like you said, I can't represent the majority of people. But I'm always happy to have a conversation and give some recommendations wherever I can.

Jason Muth:

And we should plug a couple of the places people can find you online, which we'll do now. I mean, because we'll do the final questions as well. But industrialized.com, so you own that URL, and all the content on there? That's yours?

Chad Griffiths:

I do. I just bought that domain name, actually, because I wanted to have something catchy. So that's industrialize.com.

Jason Muth:

Yeah, so go there, because a lot of there's a lot of videos on there as well, that are linked over to your YouTube channel, as well. And you have a lot of great content on there. You also have your own show, right?

Chad Griffiths:

Yep. So I started it right after we went through that pandemic there in 2020. Started with the idea of just producing some valuable content that people can get some insight from about industrial real estate. And then the second part of that was doing a podcast, much like you guys have had success with, is just trying to interview experts on various topics, and give some value and insight to anyone that's interested in the topic. So it's crazy to me, actually, that I've done over 100 videos now. That's, it seems, seems insane.

Jason Muth:

Wow, do you look back at your early videos and say, oh, man, like I could have done such a better job with this with I did X, Y, or Z.

Chad Griffiths:

I look back at the last video I did and think that.

Jason Muth:

I mean, we're all our worst critics, aren't we? I certainly look back at some early episodes of this podcast saying, man, what was I thinking there? But yeah, everything is an evolution and a work in progress. I mean, like 100 episodes in and you know, you're finding ways to improve, you know, we're doing the same thing. This is, you know, we're almost at 50 episodes in recording this one's so we could sympathize with that. But let's, let's go into the final couple of questions that we have for you that we ask of all of our guests on The Real Estate Law Podcast and hear what you have to say. The first question is, if you can get on stage and talk about any subject in the world with zero preparation for 30 minutes, not industrial real estate, what would it be?

Chad Griffiths:

I'm actually a really big Lego fan. And I have been since I was a little kid. And then I probably took a probably a 20 year break on that until I had kids. But I have two boys. They're a little bit older now. But when they were first getting into toys, we did a ton of Lego. And I've done some really big Lego projects like the Maersk Container Ship, the architectural series, I've done Falling Water, the Frank Lloyd Wright hosts outside of Pennsylvania, or in Pennsylvania. Farnsworth house, the one designed by the legendary architect outside of Chicago. I love Lego. So I feel I could talk extensively about Lego as well. I've said somewhat facetiously, that 90% of what I know about real estate came from Lego.

Jason Muth:

Well, you know, it's probably the same part of your brain that that looks at building, that you're building on Lego and kind of sees that what the space is going to be in the end. And you know, for someone to invest in industrial real estate, you're investing in a box, right? And you have to figure out like how that's going to serve somebody's business and what type of business you can put in there. So it probably has the same type of creativity.

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah, I think so.

Jason Muth:

Are you like with the Lego? Some of those sets can go for a lot of money, right? Like not just the new ones, but the vintage ones?

Chad Griffiths:

Yes. I saw something the other day, actually, that those vintage LEGO sets on a yearly basis has actually outperformed many of the stock indexes. Like some of those, like classic vintage sets are increasing 10 to 15% a year. So yeah, it's crazy. There's a whole subculture of - I think they call it adult fans of Lego. And that's the terminology. There's a whole subculture of people that collect this stuff and nerd out about it. I'm not at that level, I'm at the level where I like to do a modern set and display it somewhere and do it with my kids. So I'm not at that full on nerd level. But who knows, maybe in the future, we'll pivot from industrial real estate and go full in on Lego.

Jason Muth:

If you find yourself going to Lego conventions, then you are all in

Chad Griffiths:

And dressing up as one of the Lego characters do that. Then you know, you've drank the Kool Aid,

Jason Muth:

Or just singing Everything is Awesome over and over in your head. Our second question for you is tell us something that happened early on in your life or career that impacts how you're working today.

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah one that jumps to mind is one of the first properties that I sold as an agent. I made a mistake on how the taxes were calculated. And I'm just trying to say this in a broad context because it was in my market, so is GST goods and sales tax. And I don't know how it gets assigned in other areas. But I told the client that they didn't have to pay GST on the property that had that year of residential experience where you typically don't pay a sales tax on a used property. And I told him that he didn't have to because this was a used warehouse condo. And because he had no revenue in his company, he basically was using this to store vehicles. He called me from his lawyer's office and said, just want to clarify that you told me that didn't have to pay sales tax on this. And I said, Yes, that's what I said. And you said, Well, my lawyer is telling me that I do. So it worked out to the he had to pay an extra 5% on it. And he was calling me to see what my reaction would be. I said, I'll just say his name was Jim, as an example, when I said, Jim, I did say that I really sorry, I was an error on my part, tell me what I need to do to make this right. And it was funny, because he said, I was calling to see if you try to wiggle out of it, and worm your way out of that. And just the fact that you own that means a lot, and I'll just I'll pay it. So he was pissed off. Like he was not happy with me at all. And rightfully so that was awful mistake that I made very early in my career. But it taught me a pretty powerful lesson as one, integrity means a lot. People make mistakes, but the ones that that are trying to shove it under the rug. And I easily could have said, Paul, I didn't say that. That's not all what I had said on that, you must have misheard what I said, I could have shifted that and made it seem like it wasn't an issue, but I owned it. The second part that it taught me is that I need to be an expert in this. I can make this mistake again, I can put my clients in this position where myself in this position, so I need to just make sure that this never happens again. And that took me on a journey of courses and designations and everything I could possibly learn about the business just so I didn't have to put myself in that position. So it's kind of the foundation of my careers - integrity and being an expert.

Jason Muth:

Yeah, that's really powerful. And I mean, like owning mistakes, I think is important in any industry, you know, he was trying to catch you to see if you were going to lie or wiggle your way out of it, as you said, You know Rory, you've kind of been down that road also not to say that you make a ton of mistakes as an attorney or a real estate broker. But you know, mistakes happen, and you learn from them. Right?

Rory Gill:

Absolutely. And it's the only way to really fix them to as you if you don't own the mistake in the first place, then you're limiting your options and how you can fix it, it's only gonna get worse.

Chad Griffiths:

I think I actually said his real name, there are too. I meant to hide it by calling them Jim. And then I think actually said his real name. That was 15 years ago. And I don't think he's as mad at me anymore. And if he happens to be listening to this, I'm very grateful that he didn't take me to task on that. I was early in my career. And that fee meant a lot to me, it would have been so detrimental if I had to pay that bill because I was in the wrong. So it's I'm very grateful that that he took that approach on it. But like you said, Rory, if you don't own it, and if you don't acknowledge it, your options become very, very limited quickly.

Jason Muth:

Yeah, I mean, people understand. Rational people understand, you know, we don't all deal with rational people in our world, but rational people understand. And 15 years is probably well past the statute limitations anyways.

Chad Griffiths:

I would think so. Yeah.

Jason Muth:

Finally, tell us something that you're watching or reading or listening to these days.

Chad Griffiths:

So probably no surprise, I'm reading a book on the history of the factory, which is it's called Behemoth. It's a couple year old book written by a guy named Freeman, I believe, is the author's name. And he's a professor college in the US. And he basically did a deep dive into the history of the factory. And he wasn't doing it from a standpoint of Oh, the factory is fantastic. And here's why it's great. He's coming at it very critically, that the industrial revolution has essentially caused environmental issues and labor issues and points to stories about some of the first factories employing kids as young as seven years old. So it's not it's not a glamorous tale about the history of the factory. I find it fascinating. And it was so formulative and how we got to where we are right now. So it's an interesting book, but it's not, I have to look at it from the lens that I'm so focused on industrial real estate and so passionate about it, that I have to temper that by looking at the other side from time to time to look at some of the things that aren't good about it. So it's it's eye opening, I'd say that for sure.

Jason Muth:

There was like a mini series a couple years ago I think Rory and I watched it like a History Channel thing like was it like the The Hands That Built America or something along that line? And it was all about I might be completely making that name up. I know it's the name of something but it was basically reenactments of Carnegie and Rockefeller and all the titans of industry here in the United States and how they built you know US Steel and you know, all the all the companies that you know, eventually got regulated because they got too big, but it was it was fascinating.

Chad Griffiths:

Yeah, I'd like to watch that. If you if that is the name, I'll look it up or if you happen to come across it, let me know I'd be very interested in that too.

Jason Muth:

I gotta go back. And look now I'm probably just making this name up. But like for, you know, what shall we watch? Right? You remember that series?

Rory Gill:

I know, I forget it was on Smithsonian or whatever streaming platform we had available at the time.

Jason Muth:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll, we'll figure it out. We're not being helpful right now. But in any case, Chad, thank you so much for spending some time with us today in the podcast, you know, in a subject that we have not talked about at all a subject that you know, intimately. So, you know, you're a wealth of knowledge. And I think that this has been such a

Chad Griffiths:

Yep. great education for us. And I think that hopefully, our listeners have also enjoyed learning about industrial real estate. And you know, at the end of the day, it's a great way to diversify a portfolio, it's a great way to get started with the portfolio, from what we're hearing, we've heard a lot about the risks involved. And, you know, I think that people that are going to do their due diligence on the topic, are probably gonna be the ones that are most successful. So, you know, I would encourage people to go to industrialize.com, right? That's your website.

Jason Muth:

How else can we find you?

Chad Griffiths:

So YouTube would be another great avenue have, like I said, have over 100 videos on industrial real estate. So if you just search industrial real estate on YouTube, you'll likely come across one of my videos, or you can send me an email my last name Griffiths with an S at the end, griffithscre@gmail.com. And I check that account daily and try to reply to as many messages messages as I can. And I want to thank you guys for having me on. And also, thank you for the podcast you guys are putting out. It's, it's awesome to see just more real estate content online in general. And I'm a big fan of podcasts. So I really do applaud you guys for the awesome content that you're continuing to add to the community.

Rory Gill:

Thank you.

Jason Muth:

That means a lot. We really appreciate that, especially from another host. So thank you so much for saying that, Rory, where can people find you and not ask questions about industrial real estate but about other things?

Rory Gill:

People can ask me questions, they can find me at the website for my brokerage NextHome Titletown. That's nexthometitletown.com or the website for my law practice, UrbanVillage Legal, urbanvillagelegal.com.

Jason Muth:

And I will make a plug for reviews and comments and likes of this podcast. If you're listening to it, and you're still listening, I think you probably liked it. I'm gonna guess. So hopefully, you can give us a big thumbs up or a nice comment, or review on iTunes or Google Play or Spotify wherever you happen to be listening. So with that said, I think we're all set. So Chad, thank you so much for all of your time today. Rory, thank you once again. And you, thank you for listening to The Real Estate Law Podcast. I'm Jason and we will see you next time. Thank you.

Announcer:

This has been The Real Estate Law Podcast. Because real estate is more than just pretty pictures. And law goes well beyond the paperwork and courtroom arguments. were powered by NextHome Titletown greater Boston's progressive real estate brokerage. More at nexthometitletown.com and UrbanVillage Legal, Massachusetts real estate counseling serving savvy property owners, lenders and investors more at urbanvillagelegal.com. Today's conversation was not legal advice, but we hope you found it entertaining and informative. Discover more at realestatelawpodcast.com Thank you for listening!